Episode 006 - Head On Courage with Mick Donehue

“That was the lowest moment in my life, I’m in a much better headspace now to look after myself and I’m the happiest version of myself that I could ever be. But, I still have those thoughts.” 

This episode, the fellas chat with mental health advocate, Mick Donehue. The thing about Mick is he is your typical country bloke who grew up with a solid family, plenty of mates, loved playing footy and living life to the fullest or at least that’s how he made it seemed to everyone else. Mick takes us to the depths of his most challenging times in life and walks us through how he manages his depression, anxiety and suicidal thoughts on a daily basis and despite these still being a constant battle he reckons he is the happiest he has ever been.

Talkin Tough is proudly brought to you by Ski For Life, an Australian charity dedicated to promoting mental health, wellbeing & suicide prevention. You can find out more at https://www.skiforlife.com.au/ 

If this Talkin Tough episode has struck a chord with you and you could do with some extra support, please reach out to a trusted mate or professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14. https://www.lifeline.org.au/

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EPISIODE TRANSCRIPT:

Ben: Righto. Welcome back to Talkin Tough. I am Ben. I'm here with me great mate Mike

Mike: G'Day Benno.

Ben: We have got an awesome guest episode lined up today. I am pumped about it, but we are a couple of mates that have worked out and are pretty pretty dedicated to the fact that it is better when we lean on each other to get through tough times.

And this podcast is proudly brought to you by Ski for Life, an incredible Aussie charity that is dedicated to promoting mental health, wellbeing, and suicide prevention.

Mike: Yeah, love it. All things that that touch us on a daily basis. We've all had experiences in one way or the other. Whether we know someone, whether experience ourself it's an absolute pleasure.

The best way that we can make a difference is by talking about it, and we're bringing in conversations where we can do just that. Talk about it. And that's what we're here to do today, mate. Our definition, which we are workshopping throughout this series and trying to work out, how do we redefine tough? What does modern day toughness look like? And [00:01:00] so far we've come up with a pretty solid description 'Toughness', it's about being honest and speaking up through hardship and pain. I think that's a really, important distinction as opposed to just enduring hardship and pain. Aye Benno?

Ben: Absolutely, mate and Mikey, how are ya? How's the head?

Mike: Thank you very much for asking, something that we do very regularly as mates, we check in with each other. At the moment, yeah, I'm feeling really good. I'm focused on exercise which I always do as a non-negotiable. We've spoken that in past episodes.

I'm getting out there bashing a golf ball around. Sorry to everyone who's falling asleep in the last two seconds. So that helps me. How about yourself, mate? Let us know.

Ben: Mate, to be honest, my last week has been pretty average. I will be completely honest there. Ames has been away for work. She's been interstate, so it's been a solo dad week which isn't easy when you can't see, and it's involved obviously, just those few things that when [00:02:00] you're in your head and that voice in my head is going, some of these things mate, should be easier. When Ames is home and we are dropping the little one off at daycare, it's a five minute trip where she jumps in the car, drops her off two minutes down the road. She's home in five minutes, whereas I'm five minute walk.

Oh. There's a puddle there. We've just pushed the pram through the puddle. Didn't know the puddle was there. Now we're waiting for the bus, the bus is late, then we're getting on the bus, then I'm running her into poles in the pram. Then we're eventually getting a daycare and an hour later. I'm playing chicken with the main road to get back across from where I've got off from the bus and I'm just going, 'surely this should be easier'.

So there's been a few of those moments, I'll be completely honest, mate. There's been a couple of moments where she hasn't fallen asleep too well and it's been that one out where I'm going, I'm pretty sure she's teething and the way I've gotta give her Panadol is getting a talking tape measure out, measuring 40 mil on the tape measure, then pulling the syringe out and pulling it down to that 40 mil and then not being able to see if [00:03:00] she's, even if it's even in her mouth or if she's swallowing it or anything like that.

So it's in those moments that I've probably gone, 'oh, this is a bit, this is a bit rough'. And, has tested me to be honest. And yeah, the motivation hasn't been quite there because of that but at the same time, I've also loved the challenge of of solo dad-ing in this week. It's something that i, absolutely love spending the time with spending the time with her.

It's a lot of fun, so it wouldn't change it, but it has been a tougher week than normal. I'll, put that out there.

Mike: And something we talk a lot about is asking for help mate, have you have you reached out? It wouldn't surprise me if you just said, 'no, I wanna do it myself. I wanna challenge myself' .

But have you reached out, have you got some help from people?

Ben: Good question. There's... there's been a lot of offers. My parents God bless 'em they will always when Ames is away, go, 'oh, we can do this. We can pick, her up. We can drop her off. We can do this, we can do that.

We can make you dinner. We can come down for dinner'. I'm like I just wanna be able to, stand on my own two feet and do this by [00:04:00] myself. Because that's we, had a child and we've got a little kid now and a family, and that's what we signed up for. I didn't sign up to, to need to rely on other people to do it.

Yeah, that's a challenge. That's a juggling act, but it's coming from, a really good place. No, I haven't necessarily asked for help, but I'm also not opposed to it when I know that I do need it.

Mike: Mate, I'm I'm really, excited. I hope today you can you're as excited as I am, get some pep in your step

Ben: Mate I am bloody pumped!.

Mike: Because we are really, fortunate to be joined by a marvelous character, someone that I've known for quite a while now.

Ben: Yep.

Mike: We met each unsusually through there was a guy that spoke about suicide prevention that came out from the United States. A gentleman that in his, in a really dark moment in his life decided that it would be the best option to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge.

Managed to survive that. And his name was Kevin Hines. You can read about his story. It was quite remarkable. But [00:05:00] he was running a... a mental health and wellbeing and suicide awareness tour. I attended one of those meetings. And that's where I met the marvelous gentleman that sits before us.

Mick Donahue. Mick Donahue is a great guy as I'm sure everyone will discover in, a moment, he's a mental health first aid trainer. He's a genuine down to earth boy from the bush. A fantastic mental health advocate in our community, and he's turned his life around, which we're gonna hear more about.

Michael Donahue is my absolute pleasure. Welcome mate.

Mick: Boys, it's good to be here.

Ben: How good!

Mick: I'm... Traffic was a nightmare this afternoon as well and I'm glad to to turn up almost on time.

Mike: Mate, you are absolutely right on time. We it's, so good that you're joining with us. Look, first of all, first cab off the rank.

I'm noticing across from us that Mick is wearing a t-shirt and it's got on it a hashtag. Everyone has a story. I absolutely love that. And today we're gonna be dying.

Ben: I love the fact you've told me that he is wearing a t-shirt.

Mike: Yeah, absolutely.

Mick: When I saw you Benny, I thought, 'do I [00:06:00] take it off or is it too early in the afternoon?' I might leave it on for the moment.

Ben: Never too early.

Mike: But he's got some guns Mike he's a big unit, so he doesn't mind taking his shirt off at every opportunity, but it does, everyone does have a story, don't they, mate? And that's part of your brand Journey Apparel, which we'll hear a little bit about later.

But it's gonna be a fantastic thing to deep dive into your story today.

But One of the things we like to ask our guests is talking about when you were a bit younger this idea of toughness in particularly in Australian males growing up in Benalla, which we'll hear a little bit about.

Tell us a little bit about what did you think toughness meant as a, as growing up in a country town in Victoria.

Mick: I think toughness for me as a young bloke, small town I guess stigma attached to how I was feeling was you've gotta be tough, you've gotta not show weakness because girls won't like you or things like that.

So I hid a lot of what I was going through for a lot of years. In hindsight now I look at it and think, why didn't I talk [00:07:00] sooner?

Mike: Yeah.

Mick: I guess that fear of judgment, shame, guilt, all of those things attached to my mental health problems. I didn't really want to actually talk and open up with the people that I trusted and loved the most.

But it was just all about don't show emotion, don't show weakness. If you cross that white line playing footy with your mates, they don't wanna be out there with you. Yeah, I just hid it for a long time.

And I I think out of everything that we go through in life, it's just about trying to break down that stigma and thinking doesn't matter if you're six years old, 60 years old, 95 years old, just talk.

Mike: Yeah.

Mick: There's always someone that cares about you, that loves you, that wants to help you. Whether that's a, mate, family member, friend health professional. There is always someone there willing to support you and get you through those tough times.

So just, talk.

Mike: Yep.

Ben: And mate, it's pretty simple in in theory, isn't it?

Mick: It is.

Ben: But like, you say, growing up that's, not what you considered tough. And, we'd love to go [00:08:00] back to, to where it all began. When you were a, young whipper snapper in Benalla, tell us about what life was like growing up.

What did it involve? What did it look like? What'd you enjoy doing?

Mick: I had a great life. Like I had amazing parents. I still do, got a great brother who's my best mate. Played music my whole life, like I started playing drums when I was three, kicking the footy from probably the same age, playing cricket, playing golf, all of those things,

so from the outside looking in, I had the, typical life of a, young country kid. But from probably the age of 16 I realized that there probably was something not 100% right, but I didn't really know what it was. And because I wasn't educated around mental health problems and being on that mental health rollercoaster up and down all the time.

I just thought that was how I was meant to be

Mike: part of growing up

Mick: part of growing up, exactly and you know that small country kind of feeling and I didn't really know how to deal with [00:09:00] that. And it wasn't until after my best mate's birthday like at the age of 21, so five years later that I actually thought 'things might be a little bit more serious here.

Maybe I need to get some professional help'.

Mike: And when you say serious, obviously there would've been something like what was happening?

Ben: Yeah. It was like 16 you said something's not quite right. Yeah. Tell, us more about what sort of things were going through your head or for you to think-

Mick: The the main thing for me was I just couldn't maintain a steady mood. Like I was just up and down all the time and it was the small things that would make a, really big difference. So like you look at that bit of paper on the table, it might have been that hit the floor and that put me in a really bad mood.

Now to someone else that could be like something really small, pick up the bit of paper, put it back on the table, easy as that. But for me, like that would put me in a bad mood and I couldn't snap out of it, or I couldn't change the way that I was feeling. So the main one was those [00:10:00] moods and then I would take it out in the ones that were closest to me, the ones that I loved.

So my parents copped a lot of my moods, majority of the time. My brother, I took it out on him. And then, I was isolating myself as well. So from that age of 16 to 18, when you could legally go out and drink and party and things like that. It was like last minute making excuses so that I didn't have to go out and see people.

Now I was never diagnosed with anxiety, but I can go through certain stages where there's a crowd or am I going to know everybody at this party or event or things like that? And it just made me feel uptight. So it was like, 'sorry Mike, I can't make it tonight because-'

Mike: So you'd say yes. All your mates would be like, great Mick's coming out. Pumped up about it. And then you'd just stay at home?

Mick: Yeah.

Mike: And what'd you do at home? Just be by yourself?

Mick: Stay in my room. Just listen to music or stay in bed or things like that. But it was like two week lead up to the event. 'Yeah, it's gonna be sick'.

Mike: And did you actually want to go to the event? Were you were thinking, oh, I'll probably go, or you just knew straight away from the two weeks out, you're like, there's no way I'm doing this.

Mick: [00:11:00] It varied through different circumstances and I guess the week that I was in, like I could be really pumped up and going and I was actually 100% going.

And then last minute, I don't look good. I feel crap my head's not in the right space. I can't be bothered dealing with people. So it'll be like, 'sorry guys. Not gonna make it tonight. I'm not really feeling that well had a bad curry last night', or just making up random excuses.

'Gotta walk the dog'

Mike: Did your mates catch on that this is a bit of a pattern that's going on?

Mick: I don't know if they did at the time, only because like I mentioned before, that lack of education around mental health in small communities. I don't know if they really picked up on it, but I guess it might have been that I'd try and do it once every fortnight or once every month or things like that.

So it wasn't all the time. It might have been that I just went to an event for an hour. And then I was gone smoke bomb and then I was out. Yeah, it was just more so I [00:12:00] didn't really feel comfortable doing those things cause I just wasn't in the right head space to actually do it.

But at the same time, I didn't really know what I was going through or where to actually turn for the help that I really needed.

Mike: And talk us through so you're 16 to 18, you're starting to withdraw a little bit. You know that there's something not quite right mentally. And then you saw, you said a moment ago that you, went and said, I need some help.

And you went and saw a professional talk us through that.

Mick: Yeah. I guess like from when I was 18 as well, from the outside looking in, it probably looked like I had it all going on. School captain, footy captain, ski, lead singer in a band. Everyone's like oh!

Ben: Got it together!

Mick: This guy's he's switched on! He's got it all happening!

Mike: But underneath that's not the case.

Mick: Yeah. And I was, I guess I was putting on that mask or putting on that facade to pretend that I was okay when I really wasn't. I was trying to do things to make others happy when I probably wasn't really in the right head space myself.

But from 18 onwards, I guess it started to turn into like more drinking [00:13:00] more parties, longer nights, so then there's less sleep. Food probably wasn't the right choices. Yep. Wasn't exercising as much, or if I was, it probably wasn't as hard. So there's those kinds of things, but then, Leading into those three years into turning 21, I was just like my partner at the time, she said, 'look, I think you need some help'.

And at the time I'd had a skin full, it was probably like one in the morning, I'd had about 40 pots and I was just like, yeah, I was,

Mike: you just didn't, you didn't want to hear that. So she said that obviously one in the morning.

Mick: She was sitting on my knee at the pub and, then she said,

Mike: 'look, I think you need some help'.

Mick: I think you need some help.

Ben: And could've picked a better time!

Mike: I know!

Mick: Yeah, probably.

Mike: So when you, when she said that, was she referring to obviously the fact that you'd been drinking heavily or was she referring to mental health?

Mick: I think it was probably a bit of both. But as a young guy, you don't really look back too much at that and go 'the drinking is impacting me that much.' because it's just

Mike: that standard,

Mick: The thing you do, play [00:14:00] footy, go out with your mates.

Yeah, exactly right and she, mentioned that to me and I stewed on it on the Sunday when I was really hungover and I thought I will do something about it. And first thing I did was I spoke to my mum on the Monday morning and I just said, look, 'I don't think things are 100% at the moment', and she said, 'Do you feel like making an appointment at the doctor?'. Now I was really fortunate that we rang the doctor on that Monday and I was able to get in that Monday afternoon. Now you look at the amount of health professionals and the people that are going through mental health problems these days, it takes such a long time depending on where you live and what you might be going through to actually get a health, like an appointment with a health professional.

So I was really lucky in that regard. So went to the doctor did all the testing and then I was put on medication that day. And similar to talking about mental health in the community, you didn't really want to do it because you know like I [00:15:00] said before, the judge shame, guilt, all those things.

And then, I've got a mental illness and now I'm on medication.

Mike: So it was a diagnosed mental illness mick?

Mick: Yeah. Depression. So diagnosed with depression and at the time I was like, I don't wanna take medication, but I thought that the way that I'm feeling now, it can't hurt. So I thought I'll try it.

So I'll give it a go. And probably the first, from memory, like the first two to three weeks were probably a little bit worse. Just waiting for the medication to really kick in, get into the system properly. But like I'm not against medication, like I'm no longer on medication now, just cause I've got better coping strategies and coping tools and things like that.

But you might be put on one medication, but that might not be the right one for you. Six months down the track, even six weeks or things like that. So I had regular, like checkups with my GP and regular like visits to make sure that the medication I was on was right. So whether it was [00:16:00] the right dosage, the right style, the right brand, things like that.

So I probably went through maybe four to six different medications and dosage changes

Mike: Over what period of time?

Mick: I was on medication for probably seven to eight years.

Mike: So you were really committed to, you just knew something wasn't right and you were really committed to, making it, right? Yep

Mick: Yeah so I wanted to do the right thing for me because I just thought I feel like shit at the moment.

Life is meant to be happy. There's things that you can actually do to try and put things in place to look after yourself. And medication at the time was the right thing for me. But then I started to work other things into my life, like exercise and better food choices. Cutting out alcohol and I'm sure that's all stuff that we'll talk about.

But there's all those kinds of things that I put into my lifestyle to try and positively impact that because I went through the stage of medicating, but then also self-medicating as well. So when you're drinking and using antidepressants, it's just gonna cancel each other out. [00:17:00] So it wasn't really doing the job that it was meant to do.

Mike: I was just gonna say so, it got to a point where you were self-medicating and, obviously the effects of the medication or what they were supposed to do wasn't working. Was there a point in time when obviously you, realized that you were in some trouble?

Ben: Yeah, so 2009 was when I started self-medicating the most.

So 2009 I lost my auntie and cousin in the black Saturday bushfires. And if there's only one thing that you take out of listening to me on this podcast is don't take those moments with your loved ones for granted. If you haven't spoken to someone for a little bit, pick up the phone, send them a text, give pH, them a phone call or things like that because you don't know when that last opportunity will be because, We got the phone call on that Sunday morning to say that my auntie and cousin had lost their life, and that was really, challenging, but it made me realize how much my family and my friends meant to me.

So it I guess we can take those moments with people for [00:18:00] granted. So it just it was really challenging for not only me, but also my family. But that turned me to alcohol really hard. So I was up till three in the morning, five nights a week drinking alcohol to try and cope.

But then it got to the stage where I was waking up on a daily basis, thinking about how much I could actually consume to try and get through the day. But then Ways that I could end my own life, because at the same time, I was only working 14 hours a week. So for a young guy in a country town, that allowed me to drink a fair bit.

I was working on a Friday from 8:00 until 10:00 AM which allowed me the rest of the day to do whatever I want. Now, I'd get home, I'd probably raid dad's fridge and he'd probably get home. He'd like,' where's all my beers gone. Who's emptied my fridge?'

Mike: We've been robbed!

Ben: Guilty as charge.

Mick: Yeah, exactly. By the time that. My mates were knocking off and ready to have a few years.

Mike: You were gone.

Mick: I was absolutely wasted.

Ben: Okay.

Mick: Yeah, and probably either ready to [00:19:00] go out and party when they're about ready to have pre-drinks or ready to go to bed. But yeah that wake up call that I needed was waking up every day severely suicidal and it got to a Thursday night, good old Benalla, we called it 'Thirsty Thursday' where we'd get, all the boys together and just catch up and just check in with each other. And I was always pretty open and honest with my mates when it came to my mental health, but they didn't realize how bad I was and within half an hour of actually catching up with my mates at the pub, gave 'em a hug, gave 'em a kiss on the cheek, because that's the relationship that I've got with my mates. I had a tree lined up at 212 kilometers an hour just because I was sick of the person that I was. And the only thing that stopped me from going through with that was one the breaks,

thank God they worked but also the thought of my family, the thought of my friends, the sporting teammates, the small community. It wouldn't just impact me or my immediate family that would impact everybody else around us as well. So [00:20:00] I was fortunate that... that was the lowest moment in my life.

And there's still times where I have those thoughts like I have suicidal thoughts, but I know they're only thoughts. I'm in a much better head space now to look after myself and I'm the happiest version of myself that I could ever be. But I still have those thoughts, but I know that it's nothing that I'm going to act on because I'm so much stronger than what I am 10 years ago, 15 years ago.

Ben: So did you and no, no stress. If you're not comfortable going there, like

Mick: I'm an open book.

Ben: Yeah. Mate, and we, absolutely love and appreciate that. But there's also that, sort of thing of if you don't feel comfortable, just let us know by all means.

But before you went to the pub, are you thinking that after dinner that's what I'm gonna do.

Mick: Yeah. It was, a weird feeling that day because leading up to the I guess that day I hadn't really planned too much, but leading up to that day it was pretty flat pretty down.[00:21:00]

But I woke up that morning, I was like I feel, pretty good up and about. And I don't know if that was because I was actually going to see my mates that night. Leading up to that day I was like the, as bad as it sounds for people that listen to this, it's like this could be the last time I see my mates.

This could be the last time I seen my parents, my brother. And then I think about that now. And you think God, like what impact would that have had on that, like on their lives, if I'd actually gone through that? Leading up to it, I was probably a bit of a, happier version of myself because I was like at peace I've made the decision, this is what I'm going to do later on.

And I didn't really say my goodbyes to my mates. It was just see you next week or see you tomorrow, see you Sunday or whenever it was.

Ben: See you when I see you.

Mick: Yeah. So it wasn't really a hug and 'last time I'm going to see you mate, Thanks for everything!' it was more [00:22:00] just,' I'll see you next week'. And then I was in the car and out the road and I've had people ask me like, 'what does it feel like?' And the only way that I can explain it from my own experience was it was felt like an out of body experience. So it was almost like I was in the car 212 kilometers an hour. And if you can imagine the, reflector posts on the side of the road just looking like a white picket fence. Because it was moving that quickly. And looking at that out body experience, it was like I was out of the car, like watching me with what was going on. And then a split second, I'd gone from out of the car back into my own body and kicked in.

I was like, 'shit, what are you doing?'

Bang! On the brakes and then it's, hard to explain like that's how it felt for me. And I know it's gonna be different for everyone. But yeah, I'm just, I'm fortunate that I didn't go through with that action [00:23:00] because I... I've got opportunities like this to sit down with you guys and share my experiences.

Mike: And, so Mickey, that's a full on story. And every time, like I've, heard you tell it, but not in that detail before. You've made a pretty drastic decision and said, 'okay, this is it'. You've got it up to 212 as you said, but then something's kicked in and you've said, no, I I want to be here for all those reasons that you outlined just before.

Was that the turning point? And you said, I've gotta do something pretty significant about this. Yeah. What was it like the next day?

Mick: Yeah, that was the wake up call. It was like what are you doing? Why? And like I mentioned before the, my parents, my brother, the small community, like I had so many amazing people around me that would support me.

And it wasn't until maybe four or five years later that I'd actually built up the courage to talk to my parents about how bad I was and what I'd contemplated doing.

Mike: So no one actually knew that for five years?

Mick: I [00:24:00] know!

Ben: And how close was it?

Mick: Pretty close. Yeah, pretty close. I couldn't give you like a meter-idge

Mike: like did, you end up having a stack or were you able to recover the car and no one knew any, any different? Like what-

Mick: Just slammed on the brakes, middle of the road kind of thing. So there was like the road tree in the distance and then I was just driving straight towards a tree, slammed on the brakes and then pulled the car over with a, within a safe distance, Thank God, and just sat on the side of the road and cried uncontrollably for four hours.

And... and then snuck in the front door once my parents had gone to bed. So they didn't realize how bad I was.

Mike: And then just went to bed.

Mick: Went to bed

Mike: kept it from 'em for five years.

Mick: Kept it from them, didn't talk to 'em about it. Now I was open with them about my mental health and what I was going through and my challenges.

Mike: And not to that point.

Mick: But not to that point.

Mike: And what about that conversation? Five years later? Talk us through that. You've got your mum sitting there and you say, ;listen, mum I've gotta tell you something;.

Mick: The only reason I had to share it with them was [00:25:00] because I'd done a bit of a segment with a mental health charity and it was going on social media.

Mike: Oh yeah. Okay.

Ben: You're like, 'fuck! I better tell them before they hear, it on socials!'

Mick: I know. I thought I better, better share.

Mike: She'll should be on the and go, 'Michael'

Mick: yeah, I know. I, thought I'd better share it with them and I was still living in Benalla at the time. It was lucky that I was still there in that environment with them.

But it was, I can just remember it was my mum, my dad, and my brother, and was sitting in the lounge room and I just said, 'look, I've gotta, I've gotta share something with you just because this is going to come out tomorrow. And I wanted to let you guys know first, I wanted you to hear it from me face to face before anybody else heard it'.

And the, look and the, sound of my mum and dad, oh and my brother as well everyone. Just the, facial expression that I saw on them just [00:26:00] I guess made me realize the decision I made was the right one because that hurt and pain that I caused them by sharing what I'd contemplated doing.

I could only imagine what it would've been like if I had have done it. So that's something I can never erase. The thought of the car, the thought of the tree, but then also the vision that I've got of my parents and my brother sitting in the lounge room in a circle and I was like, this is what we are going to... I wanna share this with you.

Yeah. Something that I'll never forget.

Mike: Would've been a really emotional day, mate.

Mick: It was. And it's weird I've had people say to me like, 'why don't you get sad or emotional talking about your story' because that's a powerful story.' I just look at it and think that's a story. That's my story.

Now, if you've never heard it, that might be emotional. It might hit the heartstrings with the person that has never heard it before, but [00:27:00] it could be an anniversary. It could be a smell, it could be a song on the radio. It could be a date on the calendar. Like things like that that could make me really emotional or there could be a time where I could sit down today and I could share that story and I could get really emotional.

It doesn't always have to be that thing, like I know with you and I, Mike we did that presentation at the golf club and I got up in front of, you know what, 40 people and I said, 'I've had a shit day today'. And everyone looks at me he's like... Is this guy serious? He's here to motivate us about mental health.

Like why is he, starting off like this?

Ben: Why'd you do it?

Mick: Just because I'd had a shit day and I thought I need to be open and honest with what I'm what.

Mike: And that's one thing you always get. One thing I know about Mickey is he's always, he's never ever shys away from telling you how he's feeling and being honest about it.

You never ever put up a what is what you get with Mick. Hard on the sleeve type stuff. And I think eventually, once people got their head around that initial opening, they were really appreciative that you [00:28:00] came in there and you were honest. And you didn't sugar coat anything.

I think that was a really, powerful sort of thing.

Mick: And I think at x2, if you're in the mental health space all the time, people think that you've got it together all the time. But I'll never be 100%. And I know that, and I'm okay with that, but I've got better coping tools and strategies in place now to actually look after myself on a daily basis.

Mike: And, I I think that's a brilliant thing. We're gonna be exploring a little bit about those strategies. You talked about Black Saturday and losing your auntie and, losing loved ones in the black Saturday bushfires. Obviously the follow on effects of that sent you into a bit of a downward spiral alcohol abuse and those sorts of things.

So your coping mechanism was to go into something that was potentially not gonna be great for your health and a great way to cope with that situation.

Fast forward to your best mate. Talk us through that.

Mick: I was in Brisbane for work in 2019, and it was, I think quarter to six in the morning.

And I got a phone [00:29:00] call from my mate's BJ's father-in-law at the time and he plays golf, and I thought, 'shit, he's keen to play golf, like he's called me quarter to 6!'. He hung up left a message and I thought, 'oh, I'll get back to him'. It'll be fine. Three minutes later, another phone call.

God, there's there's been an opening on the tee time, like he's really keen to get me in as a partner. And he like, I answered the call. I said, 'Hey Joe, how are you mate? What's going on?' He goes, 'what's happening?' I said, 'oh, nothing. I just, I'm in Brisbane for work'. And he goes, 'oh, have you heard about BJ?'

And I said, 'nah, I haven't'. He goes, 'he was killed in a car accident' and like my heart just sank. I was in a hotel room on my own. And I think the hardest thing that I... that I found with that whole incident was, Being in Brisbane for work was okay because it took my [00:30:00] mind off everything that was going on.

But I got home at two in the morning and I walked into the kitchen and it still hits me hard. I looked on the calendar five days later, pick up BJ from the airport. And it just, it's one of the hardest things because I talk about the importance of network and our loved ones around us and our friends and the people that we can rely on.

He was one of them. Like even though he was living in Malaysia at the time.

Mike: Always chatting.

Mick: Always chatting. Whether it be texting, phone calls, things like that. And it goes back to exactly what I said before don't take those moments for granted. So my fiance and I, we'd traveled earlier on in the year, so went over there to stay two weeks with him.

Played footy over there and then he said, 'you need to come back for the Asian champs', which is a, an AFL tournament over in Asia. And I thought, oh, I dunno if I should [00:31:00] it's a great opportunity. When will I ever get a chance to do this again? And lucky for me, and fortunate for me that I actually did that because two months later, that's when he was killed in the car accident.

Mike: And you can look back at those memories and cherish them

Mick: And as hard as it is there's not a day that goes by that I don't think about him. I've got a photo of him and I on my bedside table. I wake up every morning, I look at our photo from when we were like traveling together, but we had a weird relationship like best mates don't have to talk that much.

We hadn't spoken much for 10 to 11 years. But it wasn't that we weren't mates, it was just that we were moving in different circles and doing different things. He was overseas and that kind of thing. I was just lucky that when he moved back to Melbourne, he moved into Mentone. Which was a kilometer from my place.

So we'd go to the gym together, we'd hit golf balls together, we'd go to the sauna together. We'd literally do everything together.

So it was like we were making up lost time [00:32:00] for that 11 years. And then to do two international trips over to Malaysia and then Thailand with him. And then get that news two months later.

It was extremely tough and I still find it tough these days, but I, guess it's like I always say, you never get over stuff. You just find better ways to cope and deal with it.

Mike: And you said with the 2009 you had that, incident with Black Saturday and then you got BJ in 2019. Your responses to both incidents were totally different.

Would you say, so on one hand originally you're not doing the best things, but then with bead you're actually learning to cope. How did you, what did you learn in that period of time, that 10 years about yourself? About how to cope when times are tough and what did you put into place after knowing that obviously the news was gonna rock you and it was gonna have a huge impact on your life, what did you have to put in place to make sure that you manage your mental health?

Mick: Yeah I think. As cliche as it sounds, I'd learn a lot more about myself by [00:33:00] 2019, like 2009, I was still relatively young. Yeah. But yeah 2019, it was one of those things because he was a schoolmate. We'd catch up with old school friends and they were other people that I hadn't really seen too much of.

So it was we'll catch up. We'll have a few drinks, we'll talk about all the memories and talk about the good times and things like that. And I started to see some old habits creeping in. So yeah, go out for two beers with your mates. All of a sudden you're having five beers and sharing a bottle of red and things like that.

And I was like, I don't really need this. So the 27th of December each year the, Malaysian warriors footy team that are back in Melbourne, they get together and just have a, like a Christmas catch up and then leading into New Year's. And that day we all got together at one of the pubs, had a few drinks, and I was like, I don't actually know if I need to drink after this.

It was [00:34:00] like a light bulb moment. Now, one thing that BJ always used to do was he'd rate sunsets, so he'd be overseas, he'd be putting up photos I reckon reckon this one's an eight outta 10. This one's a six out of ten and after having a fair few beers at that pub in the afternoon, I got to the stage where I was like I don't really feel like being around people now.

And the sky actually looked pretty nice. I was like, I'm going to leave the pub. I'm gonna get the train home and I'm gonna walk home via the beach, because there was a nice sunset and it was like, I don't think I need to drink now. So from, I guess 2009, drinking a lot and not really knowing as much about myself or the positive things that you could do to look after your mental health.

I thought at the time, alcohol was my number one thing, and it was actually doing me a positive. But then fast forward to 2019, I was like, I don't really need this anymore. So I set my challenge to go the next year. It's [00:35:00] like, all right, 12 months, let's have a crack at not having a beer or any drink for 12 months.

And I got through 12 months and Covid hit. So we couldn't go out, couldn't catch up with anyone.

Mike: Bonus

Mick: Mon my fiance doesn't drink much at all. Like she might have one drink a month if that. So I was like I'm not just going to buy a slab from Dan Murphy's and sit at home and not do anything because apart from when I was at my worst and hiding my drinking at home, wherever I was, or going to the pub or things like that.

I didn't really see the need now to sit at home and drink if I couldn't go out. If I wasn't going to a gig or going to a footy match or things like that.

Mike: Yep.

Mick: So I set that goal. I've got to 12 months. I was like, I feel really good. I'm gonna see if I can keep going. So now it's coming up to three and a half years without having a drink, but it's more so I have people say, 'are you going to drink again?'

I [00:36:00] might, yeah, I might have a drink every now and then, and I dunno if it's about actually drinking, but it's almost the challenges I set for myself. It's almost ending the streak of not drinking.

Mike: Yeah. Yep. So you've built a bit of pride around that.

Mick: Yeah. So I've gone almost three and a half years now. If I have one drink, then it means I've gotta wake up tomorrow morning and go shit, day one starts again. Now I'm three, three and a half years behind where I was.

Mike: Yep. But it's had a real positive impact on your mental health as well. Cause I know you're big on exercise, you're in the gym a lot of the time.

You're pretty active on social media for those that wanna check out Mick's guns.

Mick: I've lost a bit of them.

Mike: You're out there and you obviously take that seriously, mate. So your exercise is a bit of an important. One of the things we ask people in particular I'd love to learn from you is what are your non-negotiables?

What do you, have to do? Each and every day, weekly, monthly. What, is it that sort of constitutes your your mental health yeah. sustainability, I guess you could say in [00:37:00] making sure that you're okay in the head?

Mick: I think the three.. There's like the three key pillars for me that I look at, and sleep is one.

I think that if you get a good night's sleep, now we're meant to get on average around eight hours of sleep a night. But if you get five hours of sleep, six hours of sleep, and you know that you can function on that and you feel good doing it I'm not a sleep expert, but it's... don't mess with it.

If it makes you feel good. So sleep is number one because I think everything revolves around sleep. So if you get a good night's sleep, you wake up the next day feeling better, you're probably gonna make better food choices, you're probably gonna make better exercise choices or Sure. something that you do.

Because I know for me, if I had a, massive night where there's one hour of sleep, I'd had a slab of cruisers or whatever, or even more. I am gonna wake up I'm not gonna go straight to the Fruit Bowl in the morning. I was going straight to Maccas and I was getting a double [00:38:00] Quarter Pounder, a large double quarter pounder-

Ben: the hangover killer!

Mick: A cheeseburger and 10 nuggets every Sunday.

Mike: Take us through the next two. What are they? What are the non-negotiables?

Mick: Food.

Mike: Food.

Mick: So good food, and I think everything in moderation, but also rewarding yourself. So I've, I go through stages with my food, so I've always had body image issues. So I've always been a young kid, like from a young kid, I was always the, chubby kid on the monkey bars and things like that, maybe getting picked on like poked in the stomach or stomach grabbed and things like that. So I guess it set me up for issues that I've got or still have to this day. But I go through stages where it's like I'm cutting out carbs because I really want to drop a lot of fat and I want to try and lean up a bit, or I'm gonna eat more protein.

So I'll go through different stages. But now I've just found that healthy balance. So it's like Mon and I going out for dinner tonight, going to [00:39:00] an Italian restaurant. Back in the day, if I was in that mindset of I'm not having carbs, I'd ask for a bologne sauce without pasta.

Mike: Yep

Mick: And you're going to an Italian restaurant, it's just makes no sense. But for me it's-

Mike: you would've gotten kicked out, mate.

Mick: Yeah so it's, just food. Like food is a, really important one. So getting good nutrients good nutrition, all that kind of thing and then exercise.

Mike: Yep.

Mick: So I think all those three things flow into one.

Because like I said, if you have a good night's sleep, all those other things fall around. And then I guess the fourth one for me would be connection. So making sure that you're having conversations with your family, your friends, work colleagues and then even picking up your phone, like I said earlier, and checking in with people that you might have spoken to in a little bit.

So it's oh, 'I haven't spoken to Benny for a while. I'm gonna pick up my phone. Hey Mate! Haven't spoken to you for a while. Seen you been on the road for work. How's everything [00:40:00] going?'

So simple!

Mike: And Mick's 'great Benny. Mick's great at doing that. Like you are one of the top, definitely in the top three mate of, guys that we will just hear outta the blue, Hey, how are you feeling?

How you going?' And checking in, you're a master at that. So I think it's a really important lesson for everyone to take away is just check in if you haven't heard from someone, check in, like you said even before we were talking about with BJ. You might be disconnected for 10 years, but I'm sure that over that period of time you're checking in and you're touching base and seeing if, each other are okay.

Mick: And it's, not a hard thing to do. So it's, I think if we're going to open up the conversation, making sure that we've got the time is probably the key thing. Because if I message or call you Mike, and I say, 'How's everything going?', 'Oh, mate. Things have been really tough lately'.

'Sorry, sorry. I've, I'm about to go into a meeting. Let me get back to you in a couple of hours'.

That's a great point. So it's I think we can be guilty of that. We've gotta make sure that if we are going to open up that can of worms to say, 'Is everything okay? I've heard from you for a while'. And then we find out that, This is happening [00:41:00] and there's other things in your life that aren't 100%, if we don't have the time.

It makes it really hard. But the other thing, and I'm sure you guys are the same, we often hear when we ask someone a question, 'How have you been?'

'Oh, it's been so busy!'

Ben: Flat out.

Mick: Flat out! That's normally the answer that we get. 'I'm really busy at the moment'. But I don't think we're busy enough to not pick up our phone and send a text message, which takes 10 seconds,. 'Hey Mike, do you wanna have a hit of golf tomorrow?'

Mike: Do you reckon, Mickey, that sometimes people avoid asking that question because they're not, they don't have the energy to hear a response that they may not be... feel like they're qualified for?

Mick: Yeah, I reckon you reckon people avoid, those sort of tougher conversations.

I think there's times I've worked with organizations in the past where they say our managers are a little bit uncomfortable asking these questions because they don't feel like they've got the skills or the knowledge or the qualifications.

Mike: What do you say to that? [00:42:00]

Mick: I think we've all got the best qualification and it's our two ears.

We don't actually have to talk to someone and provide answers or advice. We've just gotta create that space, make them feel comfortable, make them feel safe. Because if we listen, I think active listening is one of the hardest skills to master. Like the amount of things that, 'what am I cooking for dinner tonight?'

'Do I have to walk the dog?', 'What am I doing on the weekend?' We could have a hundred thoughts going through our mind, like at that time. But we've gotta shut that stuff out and really focus on what that person is saying to us.

Mike: Yep.

Mick: Like listening I think is the best qualification that we can have.

Mike: Absolutely.

Mick: And just creating the space for them to actually open up and share what they're going through.

Ben: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Mike: And you're a passionate man mate. You really are. In everything that you do it's really good. You've got a lot of wonderful energy. And I'd love to hear more about, you mentioned before about Journey. Now, Journey is... is something that you are really, passionate about. You've been doing it for a number of years now. Tell us about [00:43:00] the Journey story and what it means to you.

Mick: It's an interesting start to the story because I started it right before Covid. I don't recommend to anyone listening to start a side hustle before a pandemic.

But it, probably almost worked. It worked in a positive way as well, because it got people talking. So it was a challenging time in everyone's lives. No one had been through anything like that. So to launch a mental health clothing brand, to get more people talking at that time was probably a bonus.

The interesting thing though, about Journey Apparel was within three days of actually launching the clothing brand, I had another mental health clothing brand reaching out to me to threaten legal advice or legal action. Legal action. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Not legal advice, because that probably would've been a bonus, but yeah they were threatening legal action.

Ben: Needed legal advice or was there like,

Mike: Was there like a conflict with a name or what was there...

Mick: No they thought that I was stealing all their ideas.

Ben: [00:44:00] Okay. Like IP sort of stuff?

Mick: Yeah and I just thought like how many messages can there be around mental health clothing?

And I just said to them like, what, 'like how long do you think it takes to actually launch something like this? And they said, 'oh, it's it's been taking us about six months to a year to get all this stuff off the ground for our brand'. And I said, 'so you think that I can make something up in one week? Get t-shirts printed get the brand sorted, get all the logos designed, done do you think that's possible?', And they're like, 'no, probably not'.

Mike: Yeah. And was it now, without mentioning any names, was it a non for profit F company that was protective of?

Or was it how did that all work and what ended up happening with that?

Mick: The weird thing was I got a random message on social media about, 'oh, would you like to come to our clothing launch for mental health?' And I was like I don't know how they know who I am or like how I've even been invited to this. And then I went along cause I thought, 'oh, it's a good opportunity to [00:45:00] network and meet people'.

Because I love having a conversation, as you blokes know. And then within that week I'd, already had the, plans for this stuff like this was in the works from 2019. And I launched this at the start of 2020. And within that week I was ready to launch Journey Apparel.

And I was like, then they said 'we are gonna threaten that legal action against you'.

But it was just an, interesting situation because it made me sit there and go, 'am I doing this?' Like, 'Why am I doing it? Should I be doing it like... I'm doing this to try and help people and I'm copying this crap And I haven't even started, like the brand has only just started it's fresh'.

Mike: So, if we can backtrack and just go back to the question before about journey apparel. What does it mean and stand for?

Can you run us through a little bit about that as opposed to talking let's sort of park talking about the other brand and whatever.

Why did you start it? What does [00:46:00] it mean and what do you want people to do as a result of engaging with your brand?

Mick: Yeah, so for me, I just wanted to prevent what I went through. Back in the day.

And I thought a clothing brand could do that. If people see a brand on a t-shirt, it's about creating that comfortable, safe environment so that they can actually open up.

It's, 'oh, so they're wearing a Journey T-shirt. I can talk to them about that. I know what that brand is', or

Mike: love it.

Mick: It creates a conversation of going, 'oh, what's Journey apparel? What's the love heart about?' So for me, like I've got the, Everyone has a story t-shirt on today, but the journey logo when it first started was the script writing with a love heart as the O.

And the script writing was all about the windy roads that we might take on our journey and the challenges and the hurdles that we might face. The love heart is around the support that you get from your family and friends through the, challenging times but also the good times.

Mike: Yep.

Mick: And just the word is about... about we've all got a journey, everyone has a story. But it's about opening up the dialogue and [00:47:00] making people feel comfortable to actually share that.

Mike: Yeah. I love it, mate.

Mick: We could go for a walk down the street after this for five hours.

And you have a minute with each person, they could give you a good and a bad story that they've faced in their life.

Mike: Yeah, absolutely.

Mick: But it's just about getting them to feel comfortable to share that stuff. Because I can pump this brand and pump this message every single day, but it's about me getting others, wearing the T-shirts and sharing their story and experiences, because that might resonate with someone else, could be single mum going through some challenging times, wearing a Journey T-shirt, what does that mean to you? I've got the meaning for me, but it's about what does that meaning for you or what does that word on your chest mean to you?

Mike: Yeah, absolutely.

Mick: And getting them to share that.

Mike: Love it. Yeah.

Ben: That's, bloody awesome mate. And I love what it's all about and I think the main thing is the reason behind it. I think that's the, way you've summed it up there with that, windy road, it is windy for everyone. It is a [00:48:00] rollercoaster for us all. And I think you've...

you've summed it up bloody perfectly, mate. And couple of other things that we'd just like to do is ask that if you could give yourself, your younger self some advice, what what would that be?

Mick: Talk sooner. It's the thing that I always 'say because I look back at it and think gotta be tough, gotta be strong, don't show weakness, don't show emotion, all those things'.

But if I had have spoken sooner, I would've got help at the age of 16 rather than 21. I would've had better skills in place, better, better techniques to look after myself because I often look back at my journey and think that the hardest part was going to be opening up and talking about what I was going through.

And as hard as that was, once I actually spoke to a health professional and started talking, I realized that the hardest part was going out in public and putting on the mask. And pretending to be someone that I wasn't, so once I actually opened up and spoke about what I was going through, I could actually be [00:49:00] myself.

If people didn't wanna hang around me because I had a mental health problem, that was their problem, not mine. So I had the right people around me. So if I could look back at my journey talk sooner.

Mike: Absolutely, love that. Mickey, we do some quick fire questions with all our guests.

Ben: Strap yourself in!

Mike: Schnitty or steak mate?

Mick: Schnitty all the way.

Mike: Schnitty all the way.

Ben: Yeah nice!

Mike: There was no hesitation just then.

Ben: Do you do any sauce? Any sauce on the Schnitty?

Mick: Parma all the way. Yeah.

Parma, Parmie! Wherever you're listening from.

Ben: Yeah, that's it!

Mick: I can look at the menu and as soon as I see the, chicken parmesana, I'm all over it.

Mike: Yeah. Boom.

Yeah. Poddy, book or tunes.

Mick: Tunes.

Mike: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Ben: Genre?

Mick: Punk. Punk or pop punk. That's my go-to.

Ben: Oh, nice.

Mike: Favorite band?

Mick: Blink 182. A hundred percent. If you've got contacts, if anyone out there has contacts for me to meet them, I would do anything.

Ben: Favorite song?

Mick: It's a tough one. They've got some really good songs Have to go albums, 'Take Off Your Pants and Jacket' is a good album.

Ben: Yeah, wow. Okay.

Mick: [00:50:00] Self-titled... it's, Hard, I love 'Feeling This', 'Feeling this is a good get up song.

Mike: Yeah. Love it.

Mick: If I don't know what mood I'm in, I always just go straight to Blink 182 and that, that sorts me out.

Mike: Mickey, where do you gotta switch off, mate?

Mick: Beach

Mike: Love it.

Mick: Beach or gym, They're the two. I've been doing a bit of Pilates lately too, so that's, it's actually helpped a bit of hot Mat Pilates.

Yeah it's good!

Ben: Can't say I've done it, but always, willing to try

Mick: 36-38 degrees. It's it's interesting. Really gets the sweat flowing.

Mike: How's the smells going? Floating around the room?

Mick: Not too bad.

Mike: Not too bad?

Mick: I cake myself in cologne before I go in, but it's...

Mike: offset

Mick: it's because it's something that I'm not used to. I'm just like focusing on each exercise. So it just makes me switch off.

So yeah, mainly the beach and the gym.

Ben: Yeah awesome mate.

Mike: What is the worst advice you've ever been given about your mental health?

Mick: Snap out of it.

Mike: Yeah. Love that. Snap out of it. Yeah.

Mick: The amount of times if people aren't actually educated about it. 'Oh, [00:51:00] just get over it. Snap out of it'

and it's 'oh, why didn't I think of that?'

Ben: Yeah. If it was that easy! I think I would've done it!

Mike: Yeah. Jeez.

Mick: So it's, yeah, those kinds of comments don't do anybody any favors.

Mike: Yeah. I love that mate.

Mick: And the other saying that I'm not a massive fan of, and a lot of Australians use it, is 'chin up'.

Mike: 'Chin up'.

Mick: 'Chin up mate'.

Mike: 'Chin up'.

'You'll be right'.

'Go on. You'll be right. Yeah. Chin up'.

Mick: So like you lose someone. And I know it must, it's coming from a right place.

Yeah, But it's like you've lost someone in your family.

Mike: Yeah.

Mick: 'I'm sorry for your lost mate. Chin up'.

Mike: Yeah.

Mick: It's like, 'I feel like shit at the moment'.

Mike: I love that's it's just totally devaluing-

Ben: up is the LAST place my chin wants to go right now!

Mick: Yeah so you know it's just you-

Mike: So do you just crack them on in the chin? When they say that ?

Mick: Pretty much.

Mike: No (Laughs)

Mick: It's like don't listen to those comments.

Mike: Best advice around your mental health you've ever received?

Mick: That's a really good question. I think [00:52:00] probably just someone just saying to me like, it's not really advice, but it was more so 'I'm here for you'. So it's not really the advice that they give me, but it's just that comment that they make that, 'I'm here for you whenever you need me'.

Mike: Yeah. Love it.

Mick: So it's LIKE you've got that support. Even though deep down when I was at my worst, I knew I had amazing people around me.

Mike: Yeah. So even if you don't use it, it's comforting, isn't it? Yeah. Knowing that you have it if you need it.

Mick: Yeah and I think people that say that they don't understand what you're going through, but they can relate.

Because everybody's different. If if someone says to me I'm struggling, 'what should I do?' Or 'I don't know what', like, 'how to do it'. I always say, 'I don't understand what you are going through, but I can relate to how you are feeling', and what you're experiencing.

So like getting that, but just that I'm here for you is I think think just a, huge one that we can do. And it's only a few words.

Mike: Yeah. And it's so great coming from a guy that's a big, you know you're a macho sort of character. You [00:53:00] walk around, you get the guns out, got the pipes cranking and you can actually have those soft conversations and you're the first person to do it.

Mick: So I think it's brilliant, mate. I'm one of the most emotional blokes getting around.

You shoulda seen the hug he gave me when he walked in before. Benny mate,

Shirt fronted me around the corner

Mike: he gave me a huge Yeah, it was almost a shirt front mate. No, I knew I was, I just bounded... when you're bound in though and do that, it's just, it just goes to show what sort of character you are and we really appreciate you coming in.

Mick: I think too, like I was just gonna say too, The emotion is like one of the most important things. I think one of the biggest mistakes we can do as humans is apologize when we get emotional? Like it's, that's who we are.

Ben: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Mick: So if, we get emotional sharing a story or if something triggers something within us and we start crying, it's like who cares. That's who we are. Like that's our emotion. That's the feeling that we get from that situation. So yeah, I'm one of the most emotional blokes getting around. I'll cry in movies, I'll watch a TikTok or whatever it [00:54:00] is. I'll get emotional. It doesn't, bother me because that's just who I am.

Ben: Yeah. That's cool. Hey mate, journey, where can people go? Where can people learn more about it? If they wanna buy something, if they wanna check it out, if they wanna follow you? Where are we sending them?

Mick: Do I put on my radio voice? 'So go to ww-'

Ben: you can do that. I love the radio voice!

Mick: So just www.journeyapparel.com.au.

Yep. So hit up that it's, I think it's... there's not much on the website at the moment, only because I'm currently in the process of getting some new design stuff done.

Ben: Yep.

Mick: Which is really cool. I'm really excited to launch that. But hit me up on socials or hit us up on socials, @_journeyapparel_ on Instagram and Journey Apparel AUS on Facebook.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant mate.

Ben: Awesome mate.

Mike: Today we've we've had the absolute pleasure of listening to your story.

I've learned some things that I knew nothing about. You've told us about some pretty dark moments, but also given us some really wonderful tips and tricks on how to manage your mental health from someone that knows it all too well.

Really appreciate you coming in today, Mick. And just to finish off, we always like to ask our guests, you gave us a little [00:55:00] bit of a definition of what it means to be tough and what you, were led to believe that toughness means as a youngster growing up in a country town. Just like to ask you the question and finish off with asking you the question, what does tough mean to you today?

Mick: Open, honest, and genuine with your loved ones. So having the conversation just be as open and honest as possible with the people around you that you care about and they care about you.

And don't hold it in, just talk. It's the most important thing that you can do.

Mike: Brilliant brother. Love it.

Ben: If today's conversation has either inspired you or struck a chord with something that you are dealing with, something that you're struggling with, don't be afraid to pick up the phone, call a mate and if that mate doesn't answer also there is absolutely no shame in calling Lifeline on 13 11 14 for a yarn.