Episode 002 - Who the heck is Mike “Legless” Rolls?

“There were times I wanted to go back to the way things were. But eventually, there was a focus on self and reclaiming some sort of identity” 

This week on Talkin Tough, Ben is in charge of the hard hitting questions and interviews his co host, Mike “Legless” Rolls. This chat unpacks Mikes experience of navigating life before, during and after surviving meningococcal septicemia at 18 years old. Over a decade on from this life changing experience, Mike is able to reflect on the highs and lows of living everyday as a double amputee and how he has been able to stay on top of his mental health by talking it out with friends and professionals alike. 

Talkin Tough is proudly brought to you by Ski For Life, an Australian charity dedicated to promoting mental health, wellbeing & suicide prevention. You can find out more at https://www.skiforlife.com.au/ 

If this Talkin Tough episode has struck a chord with you and you could do with some extra support, please reach out to a trusted mate or professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14. https://www.lifeline.org.au/

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EPISIODE TRANSCRIPT:

Mike: Welcome back to Talkin Tough. I'm Mike. Joined with my great mate Ben. We're two mates who realized that we were better friends when leaning on each other during the tough stuff in life. This is a podcast talking tough. It's brought to you by Ski for Life, an incredible Aussie charity dedicated to promoting mental health, wellbeing, and suicide prevention.

All things that, let's be honest, touch us in one way or another in our lives, and the best way to make a difference is by talking about it. And that's what we're here to do, mate, isn't it?

Ben: Absolutely mate!

Mike: Let's get involved. And last episode, I think it's really important to mention that we came up with what is the talking tough definition of what it means to be tough.

So can you run us through what did we come up with? Benno?

Ben: I'll obviously test my memory here because it's not like I can read my notes, but it is being able to be honest and speak about hardship and pain.

Mike: Yeah, I love that.

Ben: So really throwing out that idea of enduring it. And getting through it by yourself.

And this is a, work in progress. I think this is something that like we touched on [00:01:00] in the last episode.

Mike: Yeah.

Ben: We are open to changing it. We're open to learning from our guests. This is a organic thing that we might get five episodes and go, 'let's add something in' or let's take something out' or 'let's change it'.

Mike: Yeah from what our guests are talking about, we're. We're here to learn, we're here to collaborate together. So towards the end of the series, we're gonna, we're gonna tweak it, we're gonna refine it so that we can come up with a, more appropriate definition of what it means to be tough rather than the old ways of thinking.

Where we, straight away revert back to footy players or hard blokes or blokes to go', yeah, mate, I'm right. Yeah. Get outta me hair, sort of thing. That kind of thing'.

Ben: A hundred percent. And as we've touched on we're gonna do some, guest episodes as well. And we have our policy, our average Joe policy of no celebrities, no dickheads, and we just talk to everyday Australians and today mate.

Mike: Yeah. What are we talking about?

Ben: We've got an awesome guest in store. I'm, really pumped. And guess what?

Mike: It's me.

Ben: It is you.

Mike: So you're gonna be having a bit of a chat with me. [00:02:00] I'm looking forward to that. I love having a chat with you. We spend many hours together. I love having a chat with you. I'm not sure about the... I'm absolutely sure that I don't fit the celebrity policy, so that's good.

But the no dickhead policy, maybe I'm not the right guest for that one so...

Ben: I'm gonna leave that judgment for after this episode.

Mike: Can be a bit of a dickhead sometimes. Can't we all?

Ben: Hey, can't we all, but mate, I think the, whole purpose of this, obviously you and I know each other very well.

We're best mates, but I would love to give everyone out there listening an insight into a little bit more about your story. Some of the highs, some of the lows and, everything in between. What it means to to be tough, what tough used to be, what tough is now. So I wanna kick off with the, first sort of point is thinking back to when you were growing up as a kid, what did tough mean to you?

What did tough look like?

Mike: Yeah, that's a great question. So immediately I've given a bit, of thought I, of what it mean to me and what was it drummed into me about being tough and, [00:03:00] my first thought always goes back to my granddad.

So my dad's dad. Now, Picture this he's a man that is probably wider than he is tall.

He's only a short fella. I'm very tall, my dad's quite tall, but my granddad, he wasn't super tall. I only had one granddad because my other one died when he was 44. He wasn't super tall, but but in no ways he was plump or anything like that. He was a plumber, but he was a brick shit house.

He had really broad shoulders. I remember his arms-

Ben: So just stocky as

Mike: Yeah. I remember his arms just like looking at 'em and they were just like, Popeye.

Ben: Those blokes that just waddle.

Mike: Yeah. He did that. He was like, just he was literally like walked around and he was just a square.

He was... he was this guy and he was, in my eyes, he was tough. And the reason I thought he was tough was because we actually didn't call him grandpa. We called him Grump-pa because he was always grumpy. Like he was a grumpy guy. But I used to think, 'oh yeah, he's tough because he was... he'd never talk about being sad or his emotions and everything'.

And to me, to be honest with you, I grew up thinking, oh, that's what it is to be a [00:04:00] tough bloke. And this is a generation of people that have been through some pretty hard stuff. He'd lost lost people in the war. He had, I think he'd struggled pretty badly, silently with his mental health.

But it was always a case of, yeah, you don't talk about things because that is a little bit weak. So, I guess, if I'm being honest... that's how I grew up thinking about what it meant to be tough. That's someone that I had as a reference point and, it's funny, I didn't have a very good relationship with him.

I didn't... I didn't have any warmth from him or anything like that. Had from my grandma, great, used to love going over there. But we knew as kids to stay out of his way. And he used to be very grumbling. And hence the nickname.

Ben: Hence the nickname Grump-pa.

Mike: Yeah, absolutely.

So that's a... if I had to categorize it about what it meant to be tough and what I thought being tough meant as growing up, it was about being stoic. It was about not sharing those tough feelings. There were certain things that you wouldn't talk about because they're off limits and it wasn't masculine enough, or you were, [00:05:00] you would be talking about something and you'd, be fearful of being auk or winging or, moaning and those sorts of things.

So certainly I don't know whether it was a super helpful version of what it meant to be tough, but that's, where it started for me.

Ben: Yeah, mate. A hundred percent. I think we can, I think we can all relate to that old fella, whether it's your, whether it's your grandpa, your pop or that bloke that goes down the pub on, a Saturday and is there all day, and he is been there, he's, 92, and he's just the old school bloke that's just as tough as nails. Has all the war stories. Yeah. Doesn't crack a smile. And he is just there every single week.

Mate we're here to talk about you.

I wanna start taking you back when you're a young whipper snapper. Tell us what life was like growing up as Mike Rolls when you used to have actual legs.

Mike: Yeah. As a starting point. I'm gonna be perfectly honest, mate I wanted for nothing. I'm a really lucky privileged person.

And I make that very clear. I had a [00:06:00] wonderful family. I still have a wonderful family. I'm extremely close with my old man. My mum as well, Katie, she was a nurse growing up, so didn't have a whole heap of money. But we were really tight-knit family. I've got a brother and sister, so I was just a run of the mill, I lived in Sydney for a little bit. Then we quickly jumped back down to Melbourne which where we were originally. And I grew up in the southeast suburbs in Sandringham. As I said, I had a real Passion and a drive to play as much sport as humanly possible. I played all sorts.

I was always out and about used to get in trouble for coming out coming home too late because I'd the, rule was in my house, be home before dark and I used to come back and mum, I'd give us a bit of a clip over the years but I'd always be out. I wouldn't be out causing mischief.

I was a, probably a bit of a goodie I was out there, I was kicking the footie, kick the kick, or going and playing tennis around the corner or doing anything physical. Just loved playing sport and being amongst it.

Ben: So what sort of sports?

Mike: Ah, you name it mate. Anything [00:07:00] we could do, I've got vivid memories of doing anything from playing footy, team sports, soccer, baseball,

I played cricket and I almost died of boredom. But that was bought on by my old man.

Ben: Hang cricketer. on! Some of us here like cricket??

Mike: Yeah. No I don't mind it. But yeah, it wasn't for me. Yeah so, quit that used to smack around a golf ball quite a bit too.

My dad, I think I was five years old. He had a driver. He had that cut in half and made into two separate clubs because I was a little whipper snapper. And I remember going over the park at the back when we were living in Sydney and just roosting balls and one of them went through the kitchen window once and I wasn't a very popular kid for about a week.

Ben: Nah, Mumma wouldn't have been happy with you then.

Mike: No, not at all.

Ben: So was it your dad that copped that one??

Mike: I think, yeah, I think probably dad might have copped that. Yeah he's probably handed over these two clubs and thought shit, 'I didn't give him any, sort of guidelines with it'.

I just went out the back and I was, as I said, I was probably only about five, six or seven and I'm just smacking the thing as hard as I possibly can. Nearly killed [00:08:00] me, old me lady.

Love

Ben: it. Love it. So we've got a, we've got a pretty run of the mill way of growing up, loving sport, all of that.

But obviously As, we all know you're the Legless outta 'Legless' and 'Blind' . Sometimes we get called that as a bit of a duo or a couple of mates walking down the street. And there's obviously a hell of a story to that mate, so why don't we get straight into it. Let's not beat around the bush.

When did she hit the fan?

Mike: I had no idea what was ahead of me. As a 17 year old I, remember I made this really innocuous decision. I joined the Southern Football League which is down the southeast. A lot of the, blokes that play in that league are probably there, or at the time they were there to probably have punch on, I think it was like a legal way to get into a fistfight.

There were some rough guys in that league. I joined it and I was a string bean, 17 year old kid, and I'm playing against guys that some of them were, had played AFL and VFL. And talk about throwing yourself in the deep end I remember I was always a bit of a, soft footballer, I would say, but I was [00:09:00] tall.

I could take a mark and I could kick it a fair way. So they stuck me at center half forward. Playing against these guys. And then I remember in the second season we were doing pretty well and I just happened to be talking to one of my teammates, Rowan. And he says to me, 'Mike, you're coming on the footy trip?'.

And I'm thinking, yeah, absolutely. Where, are we going mate? I have no idea. That sounds like a great time, I'm thinking like girls and drinking and like mischief, no bloody parents. That's great. I'm 18, I can legally drink now. And it was a real drinking culture at that club. Real blokey culture.

And I was like buying into that as an 18 year old kid. I was influenced by it and I really wanted to go away and have a good time with these blokes. And, that's what I did. We had our our. We booked our tickets to go on this trip. We're going over to Hobart in Tasmania.

Small little jump across Bass Strait. And I remember giving my mum a kiss goodbye on the morning of, and then I got dropped off to one of my teammate's house. From there we go to the airport. We'll go on that great trip. And that was actually Benno the last memory before the shit hit the fan, as you [00:10:00] said before.

So my next memory I have was actually was was waking up in hospital. I was actually back in Melbourne after about a five and a half week induced coma. And all I remember when I woke up, to be honest with you I was very drowsy from all the drugs that they'd pumped into me. But I remember feeling pain all over my body.

I dunno where it's coming from. It's everywhere though. And I can see as I scan my surroundings, I can see I've got this sort of sheet across my waist and I noticed that I've got two of my fingers on my hand are missing. So my middle two fingers on my right hand are missing. And I'm thinking, 'what the fuck?

What is happening here?', I just had no idea. There's all these machines everywhere. And then I looked at the end of the bed and I saw, I see my whole family. I can just make them out. I've got my mum, my dad, my brother, my sister, and they're all staring down at me in the bed and they've got this look on their faces I've never seen before.

And what do you wanna do in that situation? So I want some answers, I'm sitting there and I'm thinking to [00:11:00] myself, what is going on? Last memory, I'm off on a football trip I'm off to have a good time with my mates. What the fuck, what am I doing in a hospital bed?

And I can't even lift my arm more than a couple of inches above it. And I'm thinking, what is going on? I try and ask a question and nothing comes outta my mouth. I've got this thing called a tracheotomy tube which they've shoved in my neck while I was in that coma. And that's helping me to breathe.

And eventually this doctor, he comes in, mum and dad are like sitting there. They're probably not, knowing exactly what to say, as I said long time ago. But I remember the doctor clearly, and he looks at me and he says, 'Mike, you've been a very sick young man. You get bit hospital for a long time'.

And I'm thinking as I said, I'm, 'this is crazy'. Fit, healthy, and now I'm in a hospital block, what's happened, right? Then he tells me gradually, he says, 'Mike, you've been very sick. You've contracted this really rare disease. It's called Meningococcal Septicemia'. And I remember thinking, I don't even know whether I could repeat back those words to the bloke, right?

I had no idea what that was. And then eventually it [00:12:00] comes in, gives me the worst news I could possibly imagine. An 18 year old kid sports mad, ready to get on with life. And I get told the news that I've had this awful disease and it turns out that I've lost my right leg below my knee and most of my left leg as well.

And the day that they told me that as I said I'm full of all these pain meds and everything but it was a gradual process. So the, I guess the torture of this was that it had to keep being explained to me day in, day out. So day after day I'd forget because I'm on morphine and whatnot.

So they'd have to come in and then it would be this realization over and over again. So it was like living Groundhog Day in the worst possible way.

Ben: Real, real sort of Nemo and Dory moment

Mike: It was, yeah, you'd forget. They'd come in, you'd be like, where am I? What's happening? And then they'd explain it to you again.

So I remember thinking that. And then eventually as I-

as time went by they weaned me off the morphine. And then the reality of what had [00:13:00] happened sunk in that my life was gonna be different. It had changed forever for the absolute worst is what I obviously thought back in those days.

And any person I would say, would probably think that would be the a bit of a nightmare to go through. It certainly was, there wasn't any fun and games or bells and whistles in the, in those early days. It was just a, dire situation where every single day in the ICU department was a life and death situation.

And it turns out that I actually went on that trip with all my mates and apparently I had a fantastic time. I've I've spoken to a few of them since went across to Hobart. We were Staying at the Rest Point Casino.

Ben: Oh Nice!

Mike: Yep. So we were there having a good old time. I don't really know what went on but the regular

Ben: I'm assuming you probably don't wanna know if it was a footy trip, let's be honest.

Mike: Regular football trip in shennanigans but As I said I breathed in at the wrong time. Perhaps I shared a cigarette with someone or shared a drink. [00:14:00] But this just unfortunate situation where I caught this bug that affects about one in a million people in any year in Australia. And then as I said ICU parents were called, had all my surgeries over in Hobart, which were pretty extensive.

My injuries were pretty severe the legs were one thing. Internally I had all, sorts of organ failure and that sort of stuff, but eventually they shipped me back to Melbourne where they could care for me a little bit better. And then it was about how the hell do you pick up the pieces after something like that?

Because I didn't know at the time.

Ben: You wake up, like you said, day after day, those doctors are going, this is whats happened, this is the impact, yeah. what are you thinking? What are you feeling in those moments?

Mike: Which way is up would be the best way to describe it. A hell of a lot of tears silent ones because I can't... nothing audible at that point in time.

So there was a lot of collective tears from, my family as to the situation and trying to wrap our heads around the magnitude of it. [00:15:00] And obviously the the anxiety that's associated with what not knowing what is the pathway forward through that what is life gonna look like long term if I even survive, like that sort of thing.

And that I think that my job was to sort of battle through that best I could. My parents' job was something totally different. And obviously being a parent now, I can empathize and see, I can't possibly imagine having to, go through what they went through in their shoes.

So that was a really tough one. I don't really, I think there was many lighter moments. The only thing I will say when I eventually, we've got good sense of humor, the two of us, I would like to think my family does too. There was obviously some pretty dark humor, moments.

When I finally got outta the ICU and, I was outta the woods and I got up to the ward, eventually we got to having a few lighter moments in amongst the darkness. But overall it was a pretty grim time for sure.

Ben: Yeah, a hundred percent. To this day I still struggle to imagine [00:16:00] what it would've been like, especially like you say, for so long day in, day out, months on end with no end in insight, so to speak.

And I'd love to unpack a little bit as well what role you were playing and your parents were playing.

So as in, like you said, there was a lot of tears shared, but was there those moments where, like looking back now in hindsight, was it obviously you got the tube down your throat, so a bit hard to smile and put on a brave face, so to speak.

But were you trying to put on the brave face so, it didn't seem so bad for mom and dad or were they not crying in front of you so that they, you didn't feel as bad, like what was happening there?

Mike: Yeah, that's a really good question and I think that the answer to that would be, yeah I, think I was trying to put on brave face, but maybe it was because I had no idea just how bad I was. Like I couldn't see me. They could see me, but I always thought, 'oh, that's okay'. I wasn't thinking that's okay, but I was thinking, yeah, 'what do we need to do?' So I'm a very solution focused person.

But I do remember hearing a story [00:17:00] many years later that I wasn't aware of, that mum and dad were coming in, like shift workers. And, then when mum would leave, she told me one day she went and as soon as she'd leave, she'd spend the next 20, 30 minutes in the car before she drove home crying.

And now, Never once did I see my mum or my dad cry in front of me. So they thought it was, obviously they were obligated to, to be staunch and tough in front of me. There was moments when I'd be crying and you'd, probably have a cry together, but I'd never sit there and mum would never initiate the crying.

It would always be to comfort me and we'd cry together. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah.

Ben: And that's what I'm, I suppose I'm asking is-

Mike: so I think we were kinda like they were being staunch on one hand I was trying to be staunch and we'll be pep them up and we'll be fine.

Get together. You do that, but you in many ways if you're being honest with yourself, I was terrified. I was just bullshitting myself. I was. But you do what you need to do to get through those tough situations in a very unusual circumstance.

Ben: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Do you think that, looking back now, that approach, would you have done anything differently? Would you [00:18:00] have been a little bit more honest about the way you felt or preferred. Your mum and dad to be a little bit more honest about their fears and feelings with you? Or do you think that I know, you can't go back and change it, obviously.

Mike: No. Obviously, yeah. I certainly don't look back and I don't dwell on it. I think there's always things that you look back and in life in no matter what situation you're in. I think you look back sometimes, you think I could've done that a bit better.

And there were things that we could probably could have done a bit better. Overall, I think that we handled it really well. So I don't,,, I don't think there was any roadmap. There certainly wasn't anything we could sit there and go 'okay, you lose your legs, Meningococcal.

Here we go. This is what we need to do. Let's got to steps 1,2,3,4 and then you'll be fine. This is the way to, to go'.

Yeah. We were just treading water at the time and, doing everything all you do is you're in a situation which we do find ourselves in from time to time in life where you tread water and you manage and you cope.

Ben: I know that feeling.

Mike: Yeah, exactly. And, I don't think there was... we weren't [00:19:00] aiming for successfully overcoming we were aiming for how the hell do we cope? And then you... that's all it was. Yeah. That was the only thing we could focus on. And then it was off to rehab.

And then it was like, how do you move on? What's your... the next step? What do you do, how do you build what the hell does a prosthetic leg look like? What does that look like?

Ben: I wouldn't know.

Mike: I didn't know. I'd never met one. I was thinking about pirates and shit, mate.

I was thinking like, what? I had no reference point for an amputee and now I was a double amputee.

Yeah. All of a sudden.

Ben: Yeah. What the hell's life gonna look like moving forward? And mate, yeah, that's full on first and foremost. And I'd now love to go right, you're in this place that literally there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah. So many questions, so many unknowns. You don't even know what a prosthetic leg looks like, but you got legs missing below your knees and you're going like, What's next? How do I get outta this joint? Yeah. So what, was the turning point?

What was the roadmap out? What did some of those [00:20:00] sort of key moments look like?

Mike: I think that there was one particular moment where I remember they wheeled me into Caulfield rehab, which was built I think in World War I to house the returning war vets. And they haven't updated the joint since.

Ben: So real modern.

Mike: So it's real like a, shit hole. This place.

Ben: Yeah righto. They wheel me up this big thing, go a breezeway across the carpark and the amputee ward and I remember the first time I ever saw a leg was someone thought it would be a good idea to put an antique display cabinet on the only entrance of the amputee ward, and it was filled with antique prosthetic limbs from the wall.

Mike: Like what sort of stuff?

Ben: Like hooks and straps and leather and like wooden legs. Like literally real pirate shit

Mike: I was like fuck, I don't have wear one of those, right? Like I was mortified. I'm thinking this is what we're at and mum was equally beside herself but very quickly, I remember the first time I'd met another amputee and we're, mates still.

His name's Kevin. Kevin had come off a motorbike, lost a leg above the knee. And he wandered [00:21:00] over to me. And I think one of the turning points for me was being able to have a chat with someone that kind of understood it.

Someone that got it. And I remember he was pretty gruff, pretty in your face and forthright, and he's a bit of an acquired taste, Kevin.

But very quickly we became mates because he understood exactly what I was going through. And it was someone that I could ask questions that No one else probably was able to answer before that point. And up to that point, I'm talking like it was all, all totally worthwhile.

But you've got OTs and social workers and prosthetists and doctors and nurses and everyone trying to ease your anxiety levels by trying to say 'You'll be fine. This is what's gonna happen'. And, to be honest with you, I would've given all that away just for five minutes with a mate.

With, my mate Kev that I'd got

Ben: Someone that gets it.

Mike: Yeah. Someone that could understand and empathize and I could ask questions too that no one else could answer. [00:22:00] None of those other people could answer. That was definitely a turning point. And, I think seeing him upright and walking around and seeing a prosthetic leg move was a really good thing because it was like, oh, all of a sudden I'm like if, I can stand up, then I can take a few steps. If I can take a few steps, maybe I can walk a hundred meters or maybe then I could even look at doing other things. Like all of a sudden there started to be, as you said before, very well in those situations,

there's no light at the end of the tunnel. All of a sudden there was a little glimmer.

Ben: Yeah. You're seeing Kevin and going, that's what's possible.

Mike: A hundred percent. Yeah.

Ben: That's what my future might involve, might look once I've got legs on

Mike: But then you get this weird sort of thing where you're like, it's demotivating and you start to plummet because you're not where he's as well. So you're seeing a compare-

Ben: Yeah, how far have I got

Mike: As soon as you enter into the comparison game, it's the opposite. Like you get demotivated and then you can go downhill. But you've gotta remember, and something that at that, time in hospital taught me was that small [00:23:00] improvements over a period of time, that's where you get the gains. You've just gotta focus on what you are doing right then and there. What's the next step? What's the next step that's gonna make you a little better than yesterday?

Ben: One step at a time. Yeah. Hard when you've got no legs.

Mike: Certainly is bit of a tough one, but I can walk in in carbon fiber legs instead.

Ben: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Mike: Which isn't a bad thing.

Ben: I love what you just said there. I would've given all of those other conversations. Meaning worthwhile conversations away for five minutes with, your mate, Kev. What did some of those conversations involve?

Like what, did you talk about with him? What were you asking him? What was he telling you?

Mike: Yeah. It was a, funny one. It was... we talk about tough in this podcast, and I, remember even dragging that definition of toughness that was I...

was ingrained in me from, as I said before about my granddad.

And I remember the first day I put a prosthetic leg on and they run you through the whole process. They're like, 'Mike, what we're gonna do is we're gonna cast your leg and then we're gonna make a little bit of a socket. And then whats going to happen is we're [00:24:00] gonna bring you back in. We're gonna make the leg, you're gonna stand in the rails wheel up to the rails, you're gonna take your weight on the rails and you're gonna try and stand up and we'll see how we go from there'. And when I say leg originally I didn't have two legs missing. I had one leg missing below money on my right side, and, most of my foot on my left side, it was like a guillotine shot through the arch of the foot and I used to wear like an orthotic sort of thing. So without getting bogged into the details. So they run you through the process. And I remember the first day I got a phone call on the ward and they said, 'Mike, we're gonna send you up to physio. They're gonna let you stand up and walk in the rails'.

And I'm like, all this an- this massive anxiety, like just filled my body I'm fretting. I'm literally shitting bricks thinking, 'what is this gonna feel like?' And I'm thinking that's the first time for the rest of my life I'm gonna be standing on a leg that I'm gonna have to wear for the rest of my life. this is, What's that gonna feel like?

Ben: Big Moment.

Mike: I was sweating bullets at that time. And I remember I was, I got to the gym and, it was kinda like one of those rites of passage we got all the, guys you [00:25:00] knew from the gym and the ladies and and the people that you're doing for rehab with and, we all went through that moment. It was the first moment that you stand up. So you get to the gym and everyone knows that's the day that you're gonna, you are gonna get your leg on and you're gonna stand up for the first time. And remember, the first time I stood up, I took my weight in the rails and I was just pleading.

And I was like, please let this be okay. And I remember I put my weight through the leg and slowly put it down through the the prosthetic leg for the very first time. And the shooting pain ran at my leg. And I could barely take any weight on it. And I just slumped back into the wheelchair.

And again, as I said before, this idea of sucking it up and being tough really came to the fore because I put my head in my hands and I tried to hide the fact that I was... I'd broke down in that moment and started to cry. And I have no hesitation admitting that I was distraught. And I thought this is like worst thing that I could ever have imagined.

And I remember Kev must have made his way and he must have seen that. And he made his way over and he put his hand on my shoulder and he just looks down at me. He goes, 'Mike', he goes, [00:26:00] 'I know it's tough'. He goes, 'but it gets better. I want you to get up and have another go'. And it was those words, it was like a pride kicked in almost and it was like, 'oh I better do that because I wanna be tough in front of my mates and that sort of thing'.

And at the time I needed that. So he's very gently just encouraged me and I got back up and I put my weight back through the leg. And guess what? It hurt a little bit less than the time before. And then I tried again and eventually I got to stand up where I could take my weight fully and I could take a couple of steps in the rail.

And that was the the encouragement that I needed by sharing that having those turning points and those moments where someone can actually gently empathize with what I was going through at the time and say, 'Hey, listen just get up and give another go.

It was a little bit of a kick up the ass that I needed and I got up. But one of the things that I look back now and I think that I don't have any shame anymore about feeling upset in that moment and, crying [00:27:00] and probably that's come with a little bit of maturity, but certainly as an 18 year old kid what it meant to be tough then is different to what it is now, for sure.

Ben: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I really appreciate one, you being vulnerable and, sharing that story. And I also love the fact that was Kev putting that hand on your shoulder because I wonder what your response would've been like if that had have been, an OT a physio, a prosthesis.

Mike: Yeah. I probably would've just sworn at 'em and told 'em to piss off.

Ben: Because it's someone that gets it. It's that mate that's giving you that push. But it's also coming from a place of, care and going, 'I get this, I've been there. I've done it. I've got through it.

You can too'.

Mike: Absolutely.

Ben: I wonder how differently that would've landed and it's so, cool that it was

Mike: it's a really good point.

Ben: Was Kev instead of one of those other people.

Mike: Even if it was my mum and dad, I would've said the same. Like I would've been upset, but it was like he's in a position to be able to say [00:28:00] gets easier.

And I'm like yeah if he's saying that...

Ben: Then it obviously does. I can definitely relate. So many people go 'I understand what it would be like'. It's like, how do you understand? You can see, like your eyes work and, same thing.

Mike: Instead of just saying, 'that must be hard'

Ben: Yeah, it's a completely different conversation. That is... Being able to relate or simply saying, 'Hey, I'm recognizing that what you are going through would be bloody tough'.

Mike: Absolutely.

Ben: 'And I wouldn't want to go through it, but I know you are. I'm here for you. Completely different conversation'.

Mate that's, a huge turning point, but you're still in rehab, still in hospital. What did it look like getting back to some sort of normality and getting outta there, what was involved?

Mike: Yeah, so we're talking 2001 a long way away from that now. I've learned over many years to get on with things and there's been a lot of water under that bridge.

I've had more surgeries, so I've become a double amputee in that time. [00:29:00] But early days that was a hell of a long process. And one of the biggest things and biggest challenges was. Simply putting weight on. So that was a long-winded process. My body had skin grafting all over it. Right leg gone, as I said, most of my left leg, couple of fingers.

All this weight loss. I went from, I think it was 80 kilos down to about 47 kilos. So the road back from that was so slow.

Ben: Oh, that's huge.

Mike: Yeah. So almost half in body weight. And it was also the fact I didn't have an ass. That's the other thing that bloody went. So just sitting up for longer than five seconds without bringing a tear to my eye was a challenge.

Ben: Has that changed your balance? Like when you're sitting on a chair, having no ass surely wouldn't help.

Mike: I used to put this, they put me in this thing. They said, I still remember this, it was called a 'Roho cushion'. I don't even know if the company's still around

Ben: 'Roho cushion'.

Mike: A Roho cushion.

They used to. And they said, 'oh, this thing, it's worth $1200 bucks'.

Ben: And is that something that straps to your ass?

Mike: Yeah, it's got all these like fingers that are filled with air and everything, and they put it on your wheelchair, right? And they say, when you sit on it, you'll be fine. And I [00:30:00] remember sitting on it and it was still painful.

I'm like, what a piece of crap this thing is, right? It literally didn't work. Nothing would work. All, jokes aside, like I just had to put weight on. And that was a really long-winded process. A lot of the time I'm shoveling food in my mouth, trying to put weight on, and then I'd bring it up straight away.

Cause my body was in, still in such repair mode and shock it'd been through something that-

Ben: And internally too, huh?

Mike: Internally, stuff like liver failure, kidney failure, when I was sick, all that stuff. So I was... I had the whole kit in caboodle. So in terms of recovery and, to answer your question before, like that was such a long process.

And looking back now, it seems a blur.

And, often for good reason, we shut things out and you're not gonna sit there. And if I really delve deeper I could probably talk to you about some of those, tougher moments. But if we skip forward, probably two, three years later, I was able to stand up and I'd, regain some form of balance.

I was getting on to doing normal. Daily activities. I've got my license back and I was I was living life, [00:31:00] I was getting back to, some semblance of normality, I guess you could say.

Ben: Yeah. And how long did it like.. That skip in two or three years? How long were you actually in hospital and rehab for?

Mike: Altogether six months. And then I got home and then I was doing day... I was commuting five days a week back to rehab for probably the best part of 12 to 18 months. Yeah. So it was a very long process coming from off a very low base.

Ben: And, what sort of were the focus points then of getting your mental health back on track, getting your physical health back on track?

What was involved in once you got home focusing on the future and getting your life back on track?

Mike: Yeah, it's a really, it's a really tough one to, to pinpoint. In terms of my outlook I remember clearly that I had a conversation with someone early days in the Alfred Hospital around, and this will give a bit of context in, my mind, my mindset,

I never woke up and thought 'ah, throw the towel in.' I was always just what do I need to do to get better? [00:32:00] That was always my mindset, and I remember one particular moment where a nurse had come in sorry, it wasn't a nurse. It was actually a, psychological, like a psychiatrist or a counselor had come into my room and had asked me a series of questions and I was answering, this is when I could finally speak again

and they said, and one of the questions was, 'have you thought about ending at all?' And I remember being totally taken back by that and thinking first of all, how the hell can I do that? I can't even lift my arm off above the bed. It'd be a bit of a hard task. And but, it shocked me and I thought, geez, I must be pretty bad if that's a question.

And I was pretty upset by that question. Later on we we had spoken mum, my mum and dad I remember being pretty upset about the question too. And, they asked, they said, oh, we ga

we asked that direct question to gauge his mental state. And I get the importance of that question, but it really took... I look back and I think my mindset wasn't [00:33:00] ever let's... it was more about problem solve.

It was more about how do we get better? And I guess that the step in terms of getting/going back to what you were talking about before, what was the process and getting having that 'what's next' Mindset, which I, always had, and I'm not saying that there weren't ' the why me's' along the way.

There was plenty of those and there was times when I didn't want to get outta bed and I didn't want to talk positive or anymore, or I didn't want to think... I wanted to, I wanted my old life. I wanted to go back to the way things were. And there was days like that, weeks like that even.

But overall, there was always I guess a shift and a focus on what do you need to do to move forward? What are the practical steps to move forward? And I think the hardest thing was how slow it was. And it wasn't just simply... there were certain things that were off the table now there wasn't... I couldn't go and I couldn't do a normal job because I needed to rest certain times and those sorts of things.

But eventually after building my strength back up, there was a focus on self, I think that I had to focus on uh... me And, building up and, reclaiming, I guess some sort of [00:34:00] identity as a young man, as well because it had changed a lot. I do think we think about, I was the typical 18 year old kid and I'd pump my chest out and I'd be thinking I that my sense of worth was measured by my masculinity, my physical ability. I tied a lot of my identity to that, and that was gone. So it was about refocusing and reassessing what it meant to be Mike again, that type of thing. And, while my life was now different how could I... what could I do and how could I do it in order to make that different and not necessarily be bad?

Ben: It's not an easy thing to do.

Mike: It wasn't, no, it certainly wasn't.

Ben: I can't imagine. You're getting home and looking in the mirror. And as you've told me, it wasn't a pretty sight. No, it might still not be a pretty sight. I don't know I'm not the best judge of that.

Mike: Yep, yep. You're a lucky man because you don't have to look at this mug every day.

Ben: That's it. Blessings in disguise, hey.

But I'm sure you would've been [00:35:00] at home looking in the mirror, going. How do I go out in public? Like how do I..., I suppose go down to the nightclub or go to the pub, or how do I, hang out with mates?

What are other people gonna think? What was going through your head in that? That sort of yeah, that sort of train of thought?

Mike: Straight away I'll, answer that, and I said I'll wear, I wore long pants when I was out.

I didn't I didn't want people to look at me.

Ben: Cover it up.

Mike: It's disgusting.

It took, a long time to go away from looking at my body and being a little bit disgusted by it. To being honest, like I've got looks like a patchwork quilt. I've got skin grafts all over me. Like it looks, it's, I was a mess man. I... and I think now it took a long time to get to a point where, You know I looked, I viewed my body as something that got me through a really tough thing.

As opposed to thinking, look at this piece of shit. Like that's like that reclaiming that thing and, looking at it and saying these scars and my leg. I look down and I wear shorts every day in my life. Now look down, I think instead of looking at [00:36:00] them as something negative, what about I look at them and I think, They're a sort of symbol of what I've been able to overcome.

Yeah. And it was a really tough thing to overcome, and it was something that Meningococcal, you look at the statistics and you see how, deadly it is. I shouldn't be here. And if I was in any other country, other than Australia with the amazing healthcare that we get in our country, I'd probably be I would most likely be dead.

They wouldn't have known what to do or how to deal with me because my, injuries and, The level of illness that I had was so severe. So in many ways I'm very fortunate. So it's about, I think in a lot of things in life we can choose to look at them in one of two ways. You can look at the negatives and there are plenty of negatives in many situations we find ourselves in.

Or you can switch it and say what are the positives? And a good example of that would be I look down and I've got two hands, I've got eight fingers. And a lot of people think, oh, that'll be shit. But I look down and I think, God, it could have been a lot worse, right?

Like, a [00:37:00] lot of people that have sepsis will have no limbs and I feel dreadfully fortunate that I am still able to do most things in my life and get around using prosthetic legs and whatnot.

Yeah. So it's about how, I guess it's more about how you look at it and how you view a situation.

Ben: Oh, a hundred percent. And there's. I think we can all relate to that, that sometimes we get caught at focusing on the negatives and

Mike: Absolutely, and I do, you do we still do sometimes.

It's about snapping out of it though, right?

Ben: Yeah. And, finding those positives in and amongst the shit to focus on. And that can often help us get through that, rough moment or that tough time or, that sort of rut that we find ourselves in. And mate you've, touched on the fact that you've and I know you very well.

You've got a beautiful wife. You've got a, an incredible young little fella now you've got a family. Life's completely different to what it was when you, this first happened, you ended up in [00:38:00] hospital, you came outta rehab. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that thing about what you do for you, what do you do to refill your tank?

Like obviously there's challenges every day with your situation, but what do you do for you?

Mike: Yeah, it's a great, it's a great question and, I am very fortunate. We both are, we've got beautiful families and that's certainly something that fills my tank spending time with them. We're very family orientated.

I'm, no, Not everyone has, that great relationship with their family. One of the other things that I always look at and I look to is you've gotta have time for you and space for you in your life. And one of the things that I do is I've always been really passionate about golf.

I remember when I first woke up, my biggest fear was I'm never gonna be able to play any sport ever again. And that was just a full stop capital letter next sentence. That was the, that was what I was saying about my future. But I remember my dad dragged me out onto the golf course early days and that point I was reluctant.

I was fighting it. He took me out and he held me up by the hips and he got me to hit a golf ball. [00:39:00] And that was a really interesting moment because I thought to myself if I can hit a golf ball, maybe I can still play golf okay. And that sort of led on to something that turned into not only something that I love to compete and play golf, but it's more of a mental health tool for me.

So it's being able to take the time. And obviously granted that's not as easy when you've got a 10 month old baby. But being able to take the time, switch your mobile phone off and get out onto the golf course and do something that you can just... time stands still.

And that's still how it feels even to this day, is being able to get out there, do something that I love and enjoy and that really recharges me and energizes me. But from a practical perspective, Benno 100%, it's always I think about something that I was told early days in rehab. There was a I think it was a, physiotherapist.

I can't recall exactly who it was but I remember the advice like it was yesterday. They said 'that every single bit of exercise you [00:40:00] do, whether it's a push up or a bench press, or you walk around the block, is like putting money in the bank for your future Mike' that's very, I'll never, ever forget that.

And I'll remember thinking to myself, and even to this day, I know that I'm at my very worst and my mental health isn't what it should be, and I'm not doing all the things that I need to be doing in my life, and I'm not operating and functioning well. 9 times, 10 times outta 10. It's because that I'm not being physically active and my pain levels increase and these sorts of things. So always my go-to is to make sure that I'm moving and I'm doing things that are gonna get my blood flow going and I'm doing things that are as we just said, putting money in the bank for my future.

Ben: Yeah, absolutely.

And there's science behind that. I'm not a scientist. You are not a scientist. And we've probably all heard the fact that the more we exercise, the more energy we get, the better we feel there's hormones and stuff that goes on inside the body that when we do exercise, we do feel better.

And I think the cool thing about what you just said, that a piece of advice you've got, the reason I love that, I [00:41:00] reckon it also applies from a mental health point of view in terms of your golf example, in terms of the more time you spend on the golf course, that's putting money in the bank for your mental health, the next time you go through something tough, something shit, adversity, a challenge.

You've got that sort of ability and energy to go through that tough stuff mentally as well.

Mike: Yeah. You're building your capacity at the end of the day. What do you need to do to build your capacity?

Like to fuel up in essence? And that's, and then for me, that's the two things. It's always been the go-to.

And I I honestly don't think that'll ever change. It's stood the test of time. Like I'm 40 now, just turned 40 and it's still something that I... you literally have to be strategic and build it into your week.

And some days, obviously some weeks and you know you can't play golf or whatever, that's fine.

But there's gotta be something that you can do. And that's whether that's gym, making sure you go for a long walk, whatever that might be. For me, as boring as it sounds, it is a basic ABC practical thing that I must do. It's a non-negotiable in my life, for sure.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah.

And apologies to anyone listening that isn't a golfer. [00:42:00] So you can wake up now. Yeah. If you have fallen asleep.

Mike: Appreciate that. Yeah. I'm always mindful as soon as you mention the word golf all of a sudden the the snores start appearing and everything, so

Ben: Nah, mate, it's what works for you.

Mike: Whatever floats your boat mate.

Ben: Absolutely. And mate. Off the back of that, obviously refilling your tank, you've probably touched on a couple of 'em already, but any non-negotiables in your life in order to be at that best you can be, it's not always gonna be a hundred percent but in order to be operating the best you can be non-negotiables.

What are they?

Mike: Yeah, I think that when I think about non-negotiables, as I said before, I think exercise is the, be all and end all. But I think that also for me it's about getting my house in order in terms of my physical ability. So always making sure that my legs are up to scratch and those sorts of things.

And I don't know whether or not that's probably a, tough one for people to relate to because you don't have to wake up in the morning and, pop your legs on and those sorts of things, but making sure some people may

Ben: Oh, some well you, do, but not all of us.

Mike: Yeah. But making [00:43:00] sure that I think putting yourself first is, a really, important thing that I've learned over the years, but not in a selfish way. Sometimes I think that we try and do too much for too much, too soon, too often and for too many people potentially that you're only giving maybe 70% or 60% of your best.

What about your, focus on yourself first and do the things that you need to do in order to build your capacity, and then you can give far more to the people that you care about most?

Yeah. And, for me, that's it. As I said before, if I'm not doing the things that I need to do for me, then I'm a worst dad. Or I'm a worst friend, or I'm a worst colleague, or whatever that might be. And probably, you can attest, mate if I'm not doing what I'm doing I'm a bit of a wanker. It's like seriously that's probably, what what do we build into our trips? I said to Ben on our last trip, I said, listen I'm gonna need you to hold me to account.

We are gonna stop every three or four hours and we're gonna do a workout on the way over to South Australia. Otherwise I'll get sore, grumpy, and I'll bite ya head off.

Ben: And that's exactly what we did.

Mike: [00:44:00] We did.

Ben: Yeah. A hundred percent mate. Love absolutely love those. And just a bit of general knowledge or a bit of insight you've just touched on. Obviously looking after the hardware, looking after the pins.

Mike: Yeah bit of WD40. Always helps.

Ben: How many you got? What are they for?

Mike: I've got five pairs of legs and they're all for different reasons. I've got my golf legs, they're a bit more flexible. About about two inches shorter.

Ben: Ha! Sucked in

Mike: Thank you very much. Yep.

Ben: Yep Bring you back down to earth a little bit those golf legs.

Mike: Yeah, those two and then I've got some running legs, which I hardly ever use because I'm a bit of an old man now. I don't I don't use those so much. Occasionally I do, Ben makes me bring 'em out.

We go for a run then I'm pretty sore for a couple of days, but then more practical stuff, so stuff that I can win in and outta the water that's not gonna rust. And what's the last ones? Oh, some swimming legs. Which are, don't have any feet on them. I just pop them on there's a flipper attached and I just put around like a little seal out in the water

Ben: so it's just like a, flipper on the stump?

Mike: Pretty much. Yeah.

Ben: [00:45:00] Stump flipper.

Mike: Yeah. Stipper

Ben: No that's, cool, mate. That's very cool. And not cheap either. I definitely know that. Are you. I'm sure we're, this question will be being thought of or wanna be asked.

Mike: Yeah, go on.

Ben: Are you the same height that you were before you lost your legs?

Mike: I get that one alot

I'm two inches, probably taller. And that was totally by accident. I went to the prosthetist and I upgraded my, old leg gotta bit too uncomfortable, so they made me new ones and then he goes,' come in, they're ready Mike'. So I went in, I popped them on and I walked around and I thought, great, comfortable. Off I went. Just got, went about my day and then I went and played golf and I couldn't hit the ball. I kept topping it. I couldn't hit it properly, and I'm like, what the hell is happening here? Like it's ridiculous can't even hit a golf ball anymore. And I realized after that he had made me two inches taller.

And my clubs were rated, obviously for what... my old legs height were.

Ben: Yeah. Designed, for the old height.

Mike: [00:46:00] Yeah. Designed for the old height. So I went back there and he goes no worries

He goes, that's, he goes, that's fine. He goes, 'we'll just put you down a, peg or two'. And I just said, nah, stuff it leave me here. And I've, been that height ever since, it is fresher up here. And the other legs that I had that were my old legs I just did a bit of tweaking and, they were okay to use for my golf. So they, became my golf legs.

Ben: So you didn't have to get a new set of clubs?

Mike: Pretty much, yeah. No. Otherwise, I was stuffed.

Ben: Love it. Love it. And mate, obviously you've been through a hell of a lot. If you were able to look back now and give... give some words of wisdom, some advice to your younger self. What would you tell him?

Mike: I would probably channel a bit of Kev and the advice I'd give is that it's gonna be a really tough road, Mike,

but keep going. Because there is light at the end of the tunnel. I just... [00:47:00] I would just more give encouragement about you can do it and just get through it, thing. I don't think I've got any specific advice because without sounding like a complete flog, I think I did it okay. I think I did it okay in terms of recovery and getting back on with my life after something that I had no idea where headed my way as a young man. So I wouldn't give anything too specific. But in terms of managing my mental health, I've learned a hell of a lot over the years.

And stuff that I wish I knew back then. And I probably am able to, use some of the things that I've learned to, to help navigate now the tougher times in life for sure. Now better than I used to.

Ben: It's sometimes the simple advice that's the best advice. And one thing we are gonna do, mate with our guest episodes as well as one another we're gonna do some quickfire questions.

Mike: Sure. Love it.

Ben: Obviously, like I've said, I don't have 'em on a piece of paper in front of me so I'm gonna do my best to, remember 'em. And I'm gonna spit them at ya.

Mike: Go for it

Ben: and [00:48:00] see what you can you can come up with. So let's kick it off with book, poddy or Tunes.

What's your go-to?

Mike: I'd have to say podcast. Bit of a podcast fien I love it. I love listening to a podcast. Got plenty. You and I share podcasts all the time, so I definitely say podcasts.

Ben: Yeah. Nice mate. Schnitty or steak.

Mike: Steak. 100%. It's my signature dish. I love a steak.

Ben: How are we cooking it? What cut? Talk to me.

Mike: Eye fillet, Diane. Thank you very much, mate. You've had it. So every single time-

Ben: yeah we have had a lot of Schnitt'ss together, literally thought might have converted.

Mike: No, but they're always when we're on tour. But I'm a bit of a one trick pony. I do a good steak. So when you're when you're doing something that you know is a bit of a hit you tend to trot that out pretty regularly.

Ben: Yeah. Love it. Nice. Where do you go to switch off ?

Mike: Golf course

Ben: Worst piece of advice you've ever been given?

Mike: Worst piece of advice I've ever been given? [00:49:00] That's for lack of a better term, that stumped me.

Oh, it's not advice but it is something that I literally would like to just scream every time I hear it and I got it plenty of times early days is when people used to come up and they would say to me, 'everything happens for a reason', for me they can go and get I won't say, but yeah.

Ben: I'm with you.

Mike: That one really gets up my goat because I don't subscribe to that. I like maybe a better one would be shit happens is a better one and an easier one. But I think I get where it comes from. People are trying to ease.

And make you feel better about a situation, everything like that. But that one really grinded my gears.

Ben: Righto. Flip the coin. Best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Mike: Best piece of advice I've ever been given, I remember hearing someone say to me, 'Mike, if you don't like where you are, move, you're not a tree'.

Ben: Love it.

Mike: I love that bit of advice because it was true.

Sometimes we can get [00:50:00] rooted in our problems and we think that, oh it's never gonna get better and everything. And it's about 'Hey, just get up and take the first step and, try and change the situation. If you don't like the situation, you're in then move.

Ben: We're not trees.

Mike: Not a bloody tree mate.

Ben: I absolutely love that one mate. Mikey.

Mike: Benno.

Ben: As you are one of my best mates. I love spending time with you. Love hanging out with you.

Mike: Vice versa, mate.

Ben: And it has been an absolute privilege to be able to sit on this side of the, table and the mic here to, unpack some of the shit that you have been through. And to be honest, I appreciate your honesty. I appreciate your vulnerability. I think everyone listening will definitely, be on the same page there by saying the way you've been able to open up not only to some of the, hard times, but also some of the things you've learned, some of the things you do for you.

I think we can all take something out of it. I definitely can. I definitely will be. And it's just a big [00:51:00] thank you from me, from us to you for, opening up and for sharing. But to finish off we're gonna finish off every single episode that we interview somebody with this question, which is, you touched on what tough was when you were growing up, but I wanna know, what does tough mean to you now?

Mike: Yeah, my definition of tough is the opposite of the old school definition. My definition of Tough is somebody that has the ability and the self-awareness to understand when they're struggling and having the bravery and courage, I guess you could say to stand up and to voice it to reach out to ask for help to not go it alone.

That's something that is never, ever easy to do and for me that's what tough means.

Ben: Today's chat has been absolutely incredible, super powerful, and as always, if it has inspired you to pick up the phone and call a mate, do that. If it has struck a chord and, touched in the heart.

Or if [00:52:00] you are struggling again, pick up that phone door mate. Or if you, they don't pick up pick up the phone and call Lifeline 13 11 14 and they'll be more than happy to listen. No shame in doing it and we'll catch you next time on Talkin Tough

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