Episode 001 - Defining What It Means To Be “Tough”
What do you get when a legless lad & a blind bloke walk in to a bar? A couple of mates on a mission to challenge what it means to be tough.
Talkin Tough is a podcast brought to you by Ski For Life, an Australian charity committed to promoting mental health, wellbeing & suicide prevention. Hosted by double amputee Mike Rolls & blind Ben Pettingill, these two professional speakers and best mates know a thing or two about what being tough really means and it’s probably not what first comes to your mind. These conversations aim to redefine how we view the word tough through story, connection & a good ol’ dose of banter so that anyone doing it tough feels more comfortable reaching out for help.
Join in on the very first of many conversations Mike & Ben share as they redefine what it means to be tough and let’s change the narrative when it comes to mental health & wellbeing.
listen to the full episode:
EPISIODE TRANSCRIPT:
Mike: Welcome to Talkin Tough. We are Ben and Mike, two mates who realized that we were better friends when we're leaning on each other during the tough stuff, don't we, mate?
Ben: Mate, absolutely! And Talkin Tough is proudly bought to you by Ski For Life, an incredible Aussie charity focused on promoting mental health, wellbeing, and suicide prevention across Australia.
Mike: First of all, as a great starting point. We've gotta work out well, What is the definition of 'tough'? What does it mean? The Oxford dictionary tells us that the definition of tough is the ability to endure hardship or pain. Interesting one, isn't it?
Ben: To endure.
Mike: To endure hardship or pain.
Ben: So break that down that probably just means to get through it.
Mike: Yeah, get through it, get through a painful time or, a period of hardship, I guess you could say. And I think that one of the things that we want to try and do here is break down what it means to be tough. We're gonna be speaking about some really, having some really interesting conversations with people that have been through some tough stuff in their life that maybe [00:01:00] change the narrative and talk about toughness in a bit of a different way in terms of not just being able to climb Mount Everest and go through all the, battles that are associated with that.
Or it's not something in football where your hip and shoulder someone, 'gee, that bloke was tough'. We want to, we wanna change the narrative. What does toughness mean in the modern world?
Ben: A hundred percent. Let's, challenge what it means. That's what this podcast is all about. And I think we've got the dictionary definition.
Let's use that as a basis to go, 'yeah that's stereotypically what we think of' and, I'm sure there's tough... tough when, I suppose people think are tough and so many different things would pop into their minds. And what we have done not that we've heard it yet, is we've thrown the microphone out to the general public and, heard what people think tough means to them.
So I reckon let's hear that and we can go off the back of that
Male Voice 1: Tough is somebodythat can take hits and knows he's going to take hits. That's being tough.
Female Voice 1: When I think tough, I think of my dad probably like he is like that classic [00:02:00] Australian construction worker who doesn't let the small stuff get to him.
He's a bit rough around the edges. He's been such a hard worker his whole life. He doesn't take crap from people. And yeah, I just, I feel like when I think tough, my mind goes straight to him.
Male Voice 2: Tough is like hard slog as a tradie or in construction and just being able to get on with it and just like just slog it out. We have this like competition at work where you just go like, how many bricks can you carry? That's tough.
Female Voice 2: I hear the word 'Tough' around like men, but I do think it is like a sense of masculinity. And being tough and not showing any signs of weakness in a male sort of sense, I'm picturing like tattoos.
It's like something really just like masculine.
Mike: That's an eye opener.
Ben: Thanks mate. Eye opener. Rub it in.
Mike: But in [00:03:00] all seriousness, isn't that nuts. You could ask another thousand people and you would have those same themes come through. A couple of things we, just heard then rough hard work, no nonsense, someone who's able to take hits. The carrying brick one what a ripper that was. How many bricks can you carry? That's the measure of,
Ben: that's the definition of tough,
Mike: isn't that a classic? Tradies came to mind and one of the biggest themes that came through there was masculinity in men. The other one that really maybe is a little bit confronting, was showing no signs of weakness.
And I think that's a really great basis point, where getting a bit of a grab and hopefully listeners will be able to I guess recognize that from their own perspective and their own dealings in whatever walk of life they're in. Hearing some of those same themes come through.
But showing 'no signs of weakness' is something that we want to buck that trend in this podcast.
Ben: Oh, bloody oath!
Mike: we wanna talk to people about and show them... show them hopefully over the course of this series that speaking about your [00:04:00] weaknesses and showing vulnerability and talking about your mental health when you need to talk about your mental health is definitely the opposite of weakness.
It's about, that's what I think, I think there's an element of toughness and courage and bravery in being able to recognize when you do need a chat to someone when you're struggling a little bit.
Ben: Yeah. And that's in complete contrast to a lot of what we just heard when people automatically think of tough.
And I think it's gonna take time, it's gonna take more conversations, it's gonna take more of us chatting like we are on this podcast, Talkin Tough to, to change that narrative that we heard from a lot of those people out on the streets, which was 'take hits', which was 'just carry a heap of bricks and get on with it'.
See how many bricks you can carry. Because that's what stereotypically tough has been. And the interesting thing I heard there too was, A lot of the time we think of men.
Mike: yeah.
Ben: When you look up and you google some of the, toughest people in the world, the likes of your US Navy seals come up, your David Goggins you, stay hard.
If you get knocked down, [00:05:00] get back up again. If you get knocked down 97 times, get up 98 times. It's just as simple as that. But I think there's so much more to it and I'm, super keen to, to explore it throughout this this series.
Mike: Absolutely.
It's gonna be really, interesting uncovering that and also seeing tough indifferent.
Perspectives in different in different walks of life. Some of the toughest people that I've ever met in my life, I can absolutely say are women. And, what they're able to endure. We've got two beautiful wives, Ben and I. We've got young families seeing seeing them give birth.
I can certainly say that that is tougher than anything I have ever experienced in my entire life.
Ben: Oh, I couldn't. I couldn't do it.
Mike: But again, we're always Talkin about an incident or a particular, a moment or a physical event. And I think we want to change that and show people throughout this podcast that toughness is more than that.
It's about emotional toughness. It's about mental toughness. And as we said before, it's about being able to [00:06:00] recognize, have the self-awareness to speak up and be brave when you are struggling and maybe even admit that you, can't carry all the bricks.
We just heard that before carry all the bricks just by yourself in life.
Ben: Oh. I think if we break that that definition down a little bit of, carrying the bricks potentially, it's about passing a couple of those bricks to your mates.
Mike: Yep.
Ben: And, saying let's carry these together instead of seeing how many you can lump on your own shoulders and
Mike: a hundred percent.
Ben: We can break that down as we go through, but I think mate, It's really important for us to mention why we're here
Mike: Yep.
Ben: in the first place. And, that is because this podcast is proudly brought to, everyone by Ski for Life, as we mentioned off the top.
Mike: Yep.
Ben: And I think it's important to touch on the Ski for Life story.
Who the Bloody Hell is Ski for Life? What are they, what is it? And it's something very close to my heart, something I've been involved in for, six years now as the ambassador of Ski for Life. So I just wanna take
Mike: the ambassador. Love it. Big boy
Ben: mate, ambassador but [00:07:00] something I'm super proud of super honored to be and I was honored to get asked, to be completely honest to be the ambassador of Ski for Life. And when I got the call it was a couple of people that had been involved in what was Ski for Life up until that point in time. To backtrack a little bit originally it was the idea of a bloke by the name of Bill Stockman who had been challenged by his mental health, had been in a really, dark place from Burra in South Australia originally, and loved water skiing.
And he said, I wanna do something about this. We don't talk about it enough.
Mike: Yep.
Ben: And especially blokes, rural and regional areas, I wanna do something to change this. And he approached a couple of people, a couple of mates that he knew that were into water skiing and said, How about we water ski 500Ks over five days and we raise awareness, start conversations, and maybe a little bit of money on the way for mental health and suicide prevention.
And the couple of people he told said, 'you're bloody mad. You've lost your mind. That's a ridiculous idea'. [00:08:00] And pretty much shut it down then and there. And as people do, you go away, you start thinking about it and go, 'hang on a minute'. Maybe we could make this work. So they, thought more and more about it and they said maybe this is physically possible.
Mike: Yep.
Ben: '500Ks, five days. Why not? Let's give it a crack'. And, they did. They gathered 20 people, two boats a heap of sausages, a heap of bread, bit of tomato sauce, and a few swags. And they water skied 500Ks over five days. And that was the first Ski for Life event in 2013.
Mike: And they got it done.
Ben: They got it done.
Mike: And as a team though just, to clarify, that's not one person at the back of the boat. You've gotta take it in turns it just can't be a continual one person. But some people do all of the river, don't they?
Ben: Yeah. Yeah. So some people do the full track and 10 years on. At the 10th anniversary there was over 30 boats, 300 people in Ski for Life raised over $300,000.
That's unreal for mental health, wellbeing and suicide prevention, which was bloody awesome. [00:09:00] I've been involved as the ambassador for five years and. I haven't skied the full 456Ks. I've done a hell of a lot of the Ks along those five or six years that I've been involved and loved every minute of it.
Mike: Yep.
Ben: But the reason I love it, mate, is because of the 'why', the fact that Ski for Life is so passionate about approaching this space a little bit differently. Because there's a lot of a clinical, there's a clinical side to mental health and, that serves a really, important purpose. But for blokes like you and I
Mike: Yeah
Ben: sometimes it's a conversation with a mate.
Mike: Yeah. Getting people together.
Ben: Yeah. A hundred percent. It's an excuse to get together. It's a reason to connect. It's a reason to go, 'you know what, there is so much more to life than, acting tough and being tough and, getting together, doing something
we all enjoy. We're all passionate about'.
Mike: Yeah.
Ben: Water skiing is a great way to do that. And now Ski for Life provides grants, does projects like this podcast which is bloody awesome. We're super proud to, to be hosting this [00:10:00] podcast and really, keen to continue to unpack and redefine what tough really means.
Mike: And a lot of people out there probably sitting there thinking, And a lot of people are thinking, you know 'who the hell Ben and who's, Mike?', we're, a couple of great mates, first and foremost, aren't we, mate?
But we've also been speaking for a very long time together.
Ben: Yeah.
Mike: And we speak about our life experiences and the tough stuff that we've been through which we will be delving into throughout this podcast, our connection with each other.
We met one day, Ben bumped into me. But just a quick one. There wasn't any accident there, Ben is actually blind, aren't you mate?
Ben: I am mate. I, lost 98% of my eyesight overnight at 16 years old, which I know we're gonna explore and dive a bit deeper into. You are gonna pepper me with some questions there.
In a future episode. But that's what changed my life. Yeah. But also, Challenged my mental health.
Mike: Yeah, certainly did and he bumped into me and unfortunately bumped into the lower half. And he's got a bit of a sore shin because I'm actually a double amputee and I've got two metal legs below my knees.
And [00:11:00] we, ended up getting past that. We got to a cafe we had a sit down and chat. And very quickly we realized that we had a lot in common. Bit of an age gap between me. He calls me a bit of an old man, but at the same time, we had a lot in common. Very different scenarios, but the way that we dealt and tackled change and challenge and, approached our resilience remained very I guess similar in a lot of ways.
And we became great mates then by example by extension to that, as Ben just mentioned, and gave a bit of background on Ski for Life story. We put our heads together and we came up with this wonderful thing called 'Mates on a Mission' where it gave us this awesome opportunity to get out in regional Remote Australia and deliver health and wellbeing initiatives on behalf of Ski for Life.
But more importantly, open conversations. Open conversations with whole communities. In particular, a lot of the, with the emphasis was around blokes and blokes that are isolated, blokes that do are tough and also regional rural, as we know, have huge issues with things like suicide mental health, [00:12:00] isolation, loneliness and those sorts of things, don't they, mate?
Ben: Yeah, mate. A hundred percent. And, I think you, mentioned that isolation piece of Ski for life, focusing on that rural and regional, piece, but speaking more broadly, I think we all feel isolated.
Mike: Absolutely.
Ben: Inside our own heads from time to time. As much as some of us can live in the big smoke, live in the big cities, or live out in the middle of nowhere, isolation is real for all of us.
And I think it's something that we can all relate to. And if it's not us personally, we probably know a mate or a family member, a dad, a son, an uncle, a brother, a sister, an auntie, whoever it happens to be. That is either going through a tough time or will go through a tough time or has been through a tough time.
And mate, this is all, really great context. But the other thing that I think is really important to mention about us
Mike: Yep.
Ben: You and I especially
Mike: Yep.
Ben: Is we don't mind. Having a laugh.
Mike: Absolutely.
Ben: And we don't mind taking the piss. You are a double amputee. You say you've got two metal legs, you've actually got more than that.
Mike: Yeah.
Ben: You've got a lot of [00:13:00] legs, a lot of different legs.
Mike: One for every occasion. Yeah. I've put my podcast legs in today, so that was good. So they're actually going well so far, so yeah.
Ben: Good mate.
Mike: Yeah. And yeah, we do like to have a lot of fun. We also don't take ourselves too seriously and we expect that there are will be a lot of laughs in this series, but we will be delving into other people's stories as well
Ben: with our guests that we're gonna be getting on.
Mike: Yep.
Ben: Let's just go with, I reckon an average Joe policy, which is hundred essentially, if we're gonna put it together, let's put it together now.
Mike: Love it.
Ben: No, no celebrities. We don't want those people that have a million followers and hear their stories. Yeah. Because we want people just like you and I that we can relate to.
Everyone's got their own story.
Mike: And so what, sort of guests are we Talkin about here? Let's,
let's say I love that because a lot of podcasts they want to get a celebrity on and they want to get people that. People already know about them. They might wanna know a little bit more about them, but we want to hear from everyday, everyday people, male, female, different age groups, whatever that might be.
But people that, that we've come across in these mates on a mission trips [00:14:00] that the world needs to hear from and people that have been touched by as we said before by suicide. Understand the importance of mental health, that we can have a real open, honest, relatable chat with, and hopefully we can get a few tips from them on how they handle and, maintain good mental health in their lives.
Ben: Mate, absolutely. And if they If they're coming in acting tough
Mike: Yeah.
Ben: And they go, 'nah mental health doesn't worry me'. Or 'Yeah, I'm all good'. We'll crack 'em.
Mike: Yeah.
Ben: We'll, make it our, job, our quest to crack 'em and, get down to, the real parts of life and what it actually means to be tough with 'em.
I think that's gonna be fun.
Mike: There is a real important element to this. And one of the things I wanted to, touch on is just a quick story. Now on our way over to South Australia, we were heading out to the mid-north. We had a pretty hectic schedule. These trips consist of a week long.
We go to all schools, from memory, I think we did about 28 sessions in a week. So they're pretty hectic. There's a lot of touchpoints. We meet a lot of people. [00:15:00] But on the way over there we had a pretty confronting, I would say confronting experience at the Bordertown Pub. Didn't we, mate?
Ben: We were, we had the. The beautiful young lady I don't know if she was physically beautiful, but personality was great. Behind the bar she was full of energy, full of life.
Mike: Yeah.
Ben: And, loved to chat. And then we add a couple of blokes, either the side of us and we were chatting away
and as we do on the 'Mates on a Mission' trips, we have our Ski for Life merch on our shirts, our hoodies and whatnot and then obviously people start talking, they go, 'what's a legless bloke? And a blind bloke do it in Bordertown. And they've both got Ski for Life on their shirts. What's going on, boys?'
Mike: Yep.
Ben: We explained the bit of the backstory of, again, ski for Life, being this incredible charity they've sent us over to the mid north of South Australia. We're going out to schools, footy clubs sporting clubs, netball clubs, pubs, community events. And we're just gonna start these conversations around mental health.
And we've got old mate to our left, going 'far out boys that really hits home'. And we like-
Mike: it's almost like that they, almost sat up [00:16:00] a bit straighter. Yeah. Almost as soon as we started saying that they almost got a bit of a, serious tone in their voice hey?
Ben: Yeah, And he goes mate that really hits home boys. And we're like, 'what? What do you mean?' And he goes' I actually lost my old man to, to suicide 10 years ago'.
I'm like 'far out. That's, full on'. And then a few minutes later we're talking to the blokes on our other side and they're going to us., 'Mate, boys, just keep up what you're doing.
Because I lost my best mate seven years ago'. And 'then the bloke beside him goes', and 'I lost my uncle two years ago'. All to suicide and then the, like I said, the lovely young lady behind the bar, she comes up and chimes into the conversation goes, 'I lost my best mate last year to suicide'.
And we are just sitting there going,' this is why we are doing what we're doing'.
Mike: Yeah, absolutely.
Ben: Like as much as that is as heavy as shit, like this is real.
Mike: Yeah.
Ben: So many people are touched by it and there's no denying it, [00:17:00] it is everywhere. There's some stats around it that will, reel off shortly.
I'll leave them to you mate, because you can read 'em. I'm, gonna be horrible at reading the notes throughout this show. That's, that's your job. But it is so real. It touches all of us. And I think to you and I sitting there that night at that bar, having a beer going, 'this is why we need to keep up this conversation', not just out on the road.
Mike: Yeah.
Ben: But now behind the microphones here, I think it's a great way to reach people that we can't necessarily always get to in front of and have a face-to-face conversation with. So that's why I'm pumped about it. And if one person takes away something from one of these episodes and he goes, 'you know what, I'm gonna check in on 'a mate'.
'I'm worried about them. They haven't been acting the same or they're starting to do things a little bit different or they're starting to recluse a little bit, whatever that happens to be, I'm gonna check in'.
Or if someone goes, you know what? Those boys, when they've been. Chatting away to guest whoever, or guest, [00:18:00] whoever, that, that really resonated with me.
Mike: And just picking up a tool or a tip or something that they're not actually doing in their life.
Ben: 'I'm gonna take action!'
Mike: 'I'm gonna try that'. Yeah, exactly. So it's about recognizing when you're struggling, isn't it? It's about recognizing when you're not, you're not bulletproof. And I think there's an element of thinking that we have to be bulletproof in our life, and we don't.
It's about being vulnerable and admitting sometimes that we're struggling. You mentioned statistics, Ben. I've got a couple for you. Last year, Sorry, not last year. 2021. There was 3,144 deaths by suicide in Australia, and blokes make up an average of seven out of every nine suicides every single day in this country, which is just not good enough.
A number of men that die by suicide in Australia every year is nearly double the national Road toll and a recent study showed that blokes in regional and remote areas are twice as likely to end their life, the blokes in the city. And as you said before, going to the Bordertown Pub really hit home that we were on the right track.
We're not gonna say, sit here and say that we're gonna change the world by any means, but if we start one conversation, as you [00:19:00] said, if we get one bloke to talk up when he is struggling, if we can give someone one tool or tip that's gonna help them in their day-to-day life deal with their mental health then I think it'll be a worthwhile exercise,
won't it, mate?
Ben: To that point, we've just reeled off some stats, mate, but I wanna make it really clear.
I know you wanna make it really clear. That we are not experts.
Mike: Absolutely not.
Ben: We have been through our own shit. Absolutely. You lost your legs. I lost my eyesight. Like there, there is some stories there.
There's some challenges there that are ongoing. Like I'll be the first person to put my hand up and say that I still manage my mental health
Mike: Absolutely.
Ben: on a daily basis. And it is up and down and like we're gonna be open, we're gonna be honest, we're gonna be vulnerable when we're flying and going really well then own it and say we're going really well, but there's gonna be times I'm sure,
with everything going on in everyday life that I might be sitting here going, 'you know what, mate, I'm struggling today'. Or, 'I've had a rough week'.
Mike: And, which we often do. Yeah and that's what you have to do as mates. You've gotta be able to have those tough conversations. It's not all 'just how you going, let's talk about the footy.
Let's have [00:20:00] another beer. Yeah, No worries. Yeah, great. No worries'. You just have that surface level bullshit when you know, sometimes. It's an awkward thing, isn't it?
It's a tough thing. To start that conversation and sometimes it's really uncomfortable and I think in life we tend to avoid those situations when we're gonna be uncomfortable.
But it's really important because as we said you could just be a a step away from really helping somebody just by opening a conversation and letting them know that you're there for a chat and if they need anything, give 'em a call. Like just, having that sounding board's really, important.
As you said before we don't wanna pretend to be something that we are not, we're not gonna be giving any psychological analysis of our guests or anything like that. We're not gonna be giving any mental health first aid tips along this podcast. We are here to learn as well. We're coming from a point of walking hand in hand with our guests and learning something from ourselves as well.
And hopefully our listeners and people that tune into this podcast are gonna take some valuable stuff away from it too, aren't they, mate?
Ben: Yeah, mate.
Mike: That's, what we're here to do.
Ben: And change some of that old school narrative we heard in those those vox popS and those people that were talking, that we wrote [00:21:00] down before, no signs of weakness taking hits, carrying bricks.
Mike: Love the old carrying bricks. We often hear sayings, don't we? Benno bullshit sayings. Can I just say that? Bullshit sayings. What are some of those? I... things that come to mind.
Ben: Let's see how many we can get. Just going backwards and forwards. Let's play a tennis match.
Mike: Suck it up, princess.
Ben: Have a cup of concrete and harden up.
Mike: She'll be right mate.
Ben: Just get over it.
Mike: There's no use complaining. No one listens anyway, mate.
Ben: Don't be a pussy.
Mike: Don't be a pussy. You love that one?
Ben: Yeah. Stop sucking. Hey, that guys sook.
You often hear that one and they're very dismissive, aren't they? And, I think those sort of sayings shut the door on the conversations we were speaking about before.
That's probably leading to some of those stats that you reeled off before.
Mike: Absolutely. I... I think what would be helpful before we venture off into this podcast, which I think could be extremely helpful for people we need to come up with a bit of a definition ourselves, don't we?
What the podcast's definition of toughness is.
Ben: Talking Tough's definition.
Mike: What are we trying to achieve with [00:22:00] talking at Talkin Tough? Mate?
Ben: Mate that's a good que- Remind me, what's the dictionary definition? Let's come back to that.
Mike: So the dictionary definition of toughness is able to endure hardship or pain.
It's as simple as that.
Ben: Able to endure hardship or pain. And I think the... when I hear that, the thing that concerns me about that definition.
Mike: Yep.
Ben: The thing that I don't like about that definition is that could be enduring by yourself.
Mike: Yep.
Ben: Bottling everything up, not talking about it and, feeling the need to go through things alone.
Mike: Yep.
Ben: And just carry as many bricks as you can.
Mike: Yep.
Ben: That's not necessarily saying that the definition of tough is leaning, like it's not including the leaning on your mates or speaking up and being able to have the ability to actually talk about that hardship and pain.
So I don't know how we workshop that into a definition.
What, are your initial thoughts for you when you see that?
Mike: Straight away I look at that definition and I, straight away my mind jumps to the physical side of things. The ability to endure a hardship or pain.
Ben: [00:23:00] Especially physical pain hey?
Mike: Yeah, physical pain and that sort of stuff, which is something I've I've certainly experienced a, fair amount of that, but I think that, If I'm honest and, I think we'll unpack this a little bit more as the podcast series works out, some of the, toughest times in my entire life had nothing to do with physical pain at all.
It was a breakup and it was a good example. That was a really tough- so it was a lifestyle change. It was a life change or a life circumstance change. Being able to deal with the emotions and the stress of that was actually harder than anything I've had to deal with physically. So I think that when it comes to toughness, I think we have to broaden our view and work out. Okay, toughness, like we said, is about being emotionally aware enough to know that when you're struggling you know that you can reach out for help. And whether that's with a mate or whether that's professional help, whatever that might be, for me, that's the courageous, that's the brave thing to do.
And in my eyes, that would be the definition of tough for me.
Ben: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think if we're gonna put it into words, maybe we expand on that dictionary definition to include some of that.
Mike: [00:24:00] Yep.
Ben: So instead of it just being endure, I think it's gotta be something around having the ability to be honest, to speak up in order to help endure hardship and pain like something along those lines.
Mike: Yep.
Ben: Because I think the thing with just having it as endure it's just do it by yourself. And I think that's the, natural fallback, the natural go-to, whereas it's,
Mike: and it's like a suffering word, isn't it?
Ben: Yeah.
Mike: That we don't have to suffer any more than we actually have to.
Ben: There's that great quote that we've been talking about a bit lately that I absolutely love, which is a problem, shared is a problem halved.
Mike: Yeah.
Ben: So something about having the ability to be honest. Speak up, share and endure a hardship and pain together.
Mike: Beautiful. I love that. I think that's a great place to start.
Ben: So I've got here Talkin Tough, having the ability to be honest, speak up through hardship and pain. And I think just adding that share, and together, I think honest, [00:25:00] speak up, share and endure hardship and pain together because this is something, life is something that we don't have to go through alone.
I think that's so important. That's something that I wanna throw out the window when it comes to that old school thinking around tough is just bottle it up and get on with it. I think, that's not working. It's definitely not working. The stats tell us that. I think we all know someone that has done that time and time again for way too long.
Mike: And it's been a really, poor outcome.
Ben: Yeah, absolutely I've been there myself.
Mike: Yep.
Ben: So I think, let's throw that out. I love that definition. I think, let's call that the definition of Talk and Tough, and I am pumped.
Mike: Be able to explore that, right?
Ben: Yeah, a hundred percent.
Mike: Unpack that. Yeah, absolutely. And we've got some wonderful guests lined up, like Ben said before we've got a no dickhead policy and we've also got a no celebrity policy,
Ben: an average Joe policy,
Mike: absolutely every day, soul to the earth people that have been through their own version of hardship [00:26:00] and pain as we spoke about before.
And that doesn't have to be necessarily in the form of physical pain as we just discussed. And we're gonna learn some tips, tricks and just unpack their stories in this podcast and try and reframe this idea of what it means to be tough, like we heard on those Vox pop's definitions before.
Ben: Mate, absolutely. And As always this is gonna be one of those, one of those podcasts, one of those conversations that is a little bit different. It's gonna, it's gonna make people think, it's gonna make people reflect. And hopefully that is what happens. If that's something that happens for you, then fantastic.
Mike: Yep.
Ben: If it inspires you to, call a mate, then great.
If it hits you, if it hits you where it hurts, if it makes you reflect on something you're struggling on, then obviously reach out to a mate.
Mike: Yep.
Ben: If not, reach out to Lifeline 13, 11, 14. They're always there to listen. It's only a phone call away, so
Mike: Absolutely.
Ben: We can't wait to get into it. This has been Talkin Tough. We will catch you next time.
Mike: Can't wait benny.
Producer: Good shit boys!
Ben: Thoughts?
Producer: Great I reckon we hit record and give it a-
Mike: (Laughs) what a wanker!
